[Music] friend you to past history yes yeah the utom oh no of how happy are you with the new 30s 20s you have some difficulties with the agricultural Foods Turkish at you know Mustafa sent some potato and also your people were very pleased and appreciated we can talk later okay uh salam alaikum everyone good morning I welcome you to our panel on the new era in ATM and navigation uh at the future Aviation Forum 2024 uh we thank you our host um the country the gaka and all the other sponsors for making this happen we have put together a very good panel discussing the Innovation and the new technologies that are coming up uh in the region and also worldwide we have a good mix of OEM uh service providers and also some regulatory expertise and some of the new technologies related to Urban a Mobility I’ll introduce myself first uh my name is aam rwan I’m a senior consultant with egis group on subject matter expert in ATM previously I worked for 15 years in abudhabi airport ANS Department in the strategy and planning department and very familiar with some of these projects that we’ll be discussing and some of the new technologies that are coming up to my left we have hervey molach uh he’s the airspace Mobility solution and Innovation practice leader at Talis he leads the labs in France Singapore and Australia and he’s developing various Technologies and capabilities through Partnerships he was also the director of air lab which is a collaboration between Cass and Singapore and Talis and he’s also served as the vice president technical directorate for Talis when he’s not working in aviation he loves to sail and he’s uh hoping to teach sailing to his grandchildren when he gets a chance and once he retires um hopefully all of us will get that pleasure um to his left um Mr Javier Javier is the regional director for Latin America and Caribbean Affairs and also the region director for Middle East Affairs for canzo canzo as you know is the industry for um anps and he basically leads the development for a traffic Management Solutions and sponsors some of the initiatives that come up he’s a member of the airspace optimization task force and also the Iko NC working group uh prior to his role at Cano Mr Javier was 5 years with nir in the Spanish ANP very responsible financial and economic aspects and he’s worked with various uh director generals and presidents on topics of leadership and in terms of what he doesn’t do when he’s not working so he’s good at Salsa Salsa dancing is his passion not sure uh what was the last time he practiced it but uh that’s something that he likes to do um then we have uh Corin Huber so Mr Corwin uh basically and I’m sorry I’m looking at my notes yes so he’s the founder of skyroads which is uh related to Urban Air Mobility they’re working for Solutions digital solutions for making sure that the drones and other uavs don’t hit each other he is a expert for 30 years in engineering and management he has led aircraft design and manufacturing companies and also a high-tech Material Science company uh among other things so he’s an active pilot and um among his passions he’s an aerobatic uh he enjoys test flying and he also flies very high performance aircraft so if you have any questions on how to conduct High Velocity Maneuvers that’ll be our guy uh Mr haer is next Mr haer is former president of the Euro contr control provisional Council he uh was elected for 4 years for that Council uh two years unanimously and he also served as a member of FS UHF Board of Governors he originally joined the Turkish dgca as an erotical engineer 30 years ago and then served as their uh Deputy DG for 17 years he’s a former member of the Iko and ncmc and also members of other Iko working groups and chairman of the RG Europe he currently works at the EUR control has a senior expert and a member of The Advisory Board of the world UAV Federation he enjoys traveling and he also has a YouTube channel that he runs and he’s interviewed a bunch of people including Mr salvator scano who’s the president of the Iko and also Philipe de Ola the DG of ACI uh next we have Desmond witty a good friend of ours from here in the region from Sans Nera he’s basically uh an expert among other things in remote technology he’s leading the charge for developing the solution here in the region he’s got 30 years of experience across multiple organizations including Aviation engineering air frames aircraft performance and ramp management he holds up MN human factors and also safety assessment and Aeronautics he’s currently also studying at a PhD level and for his passions he’s just learned to do skiing so while in Saudi Arabia managed to find some time for skiing so that’s something that uh is admirable and last but not the least um Mr hey there so okay so Larry so I’m sorry we we missed the order a little bit so for Larry he’s basically in Boeing research he’s LED for more than 40 years in Boeing and he is in the Boeing’s defense commercial and Global business in global new programs uh Larry currently works in the operational efficiency organization and leads a customer engagement for boing in those areas he’s the co-chair of canzo UAV UTM program and the task force and also the operational system Innovation group Larry likes to travel including uh to his wife’s home country in Colombia so there’s some connections salsa and Colombia and other things but he recently V visited jeda and he liked what he saw and would like to come back and maybe do some projects in jeda so I please join me in welcoming our student panel and we hopefully we’ll have a good discussion thank [Applause] you so um I’ll start with hery first um in terms of technology and we have heard a lot about big data and data analytics and new innovation technology in various areas uh coming from the Talis OEM perspective would you be able to share some ideas and thoughts on what you guys are working on and how it can be incorporated moving forward yes can you hear me first yes okay well first thank you thank you for inviting me it’s a it’s very exciting to be here and to share a little bit of what we are doing in Tales um first I I would say it’s a it’s a very exciting time as well time as well in terms of Innovations uh I think the the rate of change and the rate of innovation ATM is going faster uh I mean I’ve been working ATM for 40 years and I’m quite exciting by quite excited about what we are seeing I think it’s a it’s a huge transformation which is coming from the digital mainly because uh the huge I mean data the fact that we have now a lot of data coming and uh also I mean and I’m sure my my my colleagues will talk about it I mean the fact that the development of artificial intelligence and uh and machine learning is also happening uh it will take some times and I will come back on that one but it’s happening uh definitely uh it means that we will have to change the way we we we we we we are looking at the parading of what we what what what we are doing so what does it mean uh from our perspective uh it will it will be basically to look at more digital Solutions on what we are doing um D Solutions but also open Solutions um if we think about all the the generations of previous air traffic Management systems were used to design and buil um there is a shift there is a shift of parading looking at using new technologies which are the digital Technologies and also getting the getting them open I think from a pure customer perspective from a pure NSP perspective there is the Hem of the design to go faster and to be able also to integrate with with third parties which is some today something which is quite complex so that’s I think for me the the big change from a pure I would say industrial perspective uh we are working now on the to platforms so definitely we are looking at this very very seriously for the next Generations of systems so that’s where we are going uh we have to take into account that uh it’s not simple not easy because uh um safety and cyber security from a regul regulator perspective is is growing I mean it’s always rising and that’s something which will have to be addressed and it’s a big challenge uh and we are working with aaza and also agencies to look at how we can address that uh that uh that challenge yes and it’s a change of parad at the end so definitely mean that’s what I see in terms of change from a pure industrial perspective thank you and I could continue as well on artial intelligence but I think we’ll come back on that one yes thank you we’ll come back to some of the other enhancements in a minute but Javier from your side I know that you as from Kano side we’re working on some integration Technologies between ATM and UTM and some of the other optimizations can you throw some light on that please yes correct uh so so right now we’re living a trans phase right um it’s like going to from floppy to uh to the cloud base uh on this time on Aviation So within within the canasa we have created what is called the Complete air traffic system Global Council which is a um a companion of many of the asps around the world including NASA boing Airbus and many of the VTOL um manufacturers so we created the vision of the SK of the future Skies of 2045 okay and within that vision is actually an integration of all the new entrance and of course the uh the increase of space operations so that’s how we are working together to integrate uh and creating that vision for 2025 45 now on the lack region and uh I see friends from I and kesna here um we have been working uh to implement what is called the Strategic direct routings we have done in Mexico we have done approximately 18 flight trials uh with uh saving the Airlines and approximately $3 million in operational savings and more than 8 million kilograms of CO2 reduction emissions uh those are only on Trials at the regional side we did several trials one of them was from Lima uh I’m sorry from Atlanta to Lima with Delta uh on optim optimization of flights and on those trials we were also working and save the airlines more than $4 million us um so that’s using these concepts for sustainable Aviation and working on uh those goals and uh helping the nvgs corre yes perfect no thank you thank you Javier and we’ll come back to some of the other Concepts that you’re working in Latin America on that uh I appreciate that and um Carin for your side from like the UAV side and how are you looking at integrating some of the information that’s available um and the technology that you’re using um well obviously the integration of um information is is key to any form of of um guiding Vehicles safely this is entirely clear from a very operational point of view on the ground trying to provide valid routing and deconfliction to vehicles um from our point of view it becomes very critical to make sure that data are um reliable accurate um so we um are going to Great Lengths making sure that the data that we analyze and integrate to the system actually reflects reality um and um I think there is there is a lot of discussion about data interpretation and I’m I’m I’d be happy to take part in that discussion before but before we interpret data we may need to make sure that the data itself is valid and reflects reality and um I think there is still um a significant amount of work to be done in order make to make um up toate data reliable data available to the aviation Community it’s um um in general when you collect data um you have topographic data weather data all kinds of obstacle data um existing traffic data and you may need to make sure that data in is um to a degree of reliability and Fidelity that um you can apply it to navigational decisions and I I I think that there’s still a way to go in that respect I appreciate appreciate that now definitely uh the old are adage about garbage in garbage out so we need to make sure the data is accurate and it’s correctly used and interpreted so definitely um so Larry from your point of view in terms of boing and how they are interpreting the data in terms of aircraft performance Etc and also some of the optimization and sustainability using these information that’s available can you add some to the discussion there uh sure uh thank you uh first of all thank you for the invitation to participate in this panel this morning in this beautiful venue um uh yes so so the importance of data is uh becoming more and more uh omnipresent uh more and more present are more more and more important um as Herff mentioned uh the uh the amount of change uh in our uh operational environment today is is uh transformational uh really is um our aircraft as well as those of uh other aircraft that are flying today uh generate a tremendous amount of data um these aircraft are connected uh to um to air traffic control uh to the airline operations center uh so there are lots of opportunities uh to leverage this data um Forst sustainability purposes in order to fly more efficient routes uh that result in less emissions being burned uh during the flight um it allows for uh better coordination with air traffic control uh so that uh flights that are transiting uh the the globe uh can arrive at their destination on time uh without um being put into a an a holding stack um which once again uh has an impact on sustainability um the the other issue with uh the data is that can be used for uh better predictive purposes of how the aircraft can operate and um for maintenance purposes so that the airline uh has um greater value in using the asset um and taking a value of of that accet and then and then lastly and I think really the uh major transformational piece here is that um the flight rules under which aircraft um will operate uh will transform from um IFR to uh digital flight Rule uh Concepts uh that will facilitate uh the integration of all users um be it a VFR uh platform be it um an IFR be it uh new entrance uh such as Urban immobility uh platforms as well as established users so uh the value of the data uh the application of AI Concepts uh to that data uh will ultimately enable a more efficient uh air traffic uh system no I appreciate that and I’ll definitely come back to you in terms of interaction between traditional aircraft and the uavs and how the data will get exchanged possibly using some of the systems Corin is developing or some of our other OEM in the Urban Air Mobility section and uh Desmond I’ll come back to you in a minute but hether if you can throw some ideas about the data and the artificial intelligence especially portion of it because that’s a big buzz word right how does that apply to ATM and moving forward uh thank you very much uh Asim and good morning everyone I am also pleased to be here in front of you to be a member of this valuable group uh in fact Asim with your permission I would like to approach the issues from the regulatory perspective because all the other members are representative of the industries in different parts but I believe uh the perspective from the regulatory side will complete the pictures Technologies are AA ailable also it was available yesterday and it will be available in the forthcoming period as well but the main issue is how we use this technology in a proper manner because what is the Paramount of the aviation people is to maintain high level of safety so in order to keep that safety in one side high level of technology is available but we need to use that technology for this Paramount purposes to keep high level of safety but while keeping this uh efforts we need to keep as efficient as possible and sustainable Manner and also a uh the transformation is also essential for digitalization purposes what does digitalization is for what is digital ation for this is also essential for having the situation in more clear Manner and keeping the trends for the future it will only be possible to keep the data so big data cannot be analyzed with the current traditional efforts with the human being so therefore we need some technology and that technology uh will be using by AI or uh some uh other uh technological uh abilities so AI is also using for reducing the environmental effect at the same time improving the current capacity as much as possible and also digitalization is also used for the efficiency improving the efficiency of the system therefore these two issues are important to improve the current system but how shall we do it I would like also to underline another issue which is collaborative efforts there is a technology there is an uh other Ai and other things but what about the regulatory perspective of this so the regulatory authorities should work with all the related stakeholders in the industry to keep as smooth as possible and implementation of this smth uh new technologies so adaptability of the regulations using this technology is I believe an important step forward no absolutely I think that’s very important to note that artificial intelligence use of it for strategic decision making tactical decision making has to go through a safety assessment has to get the regulatory approval before it’s put in put in use uh so we’ll explore that a little bit further but coming back to Dez and some of the technology that they’re already incorporating to good use which is the remote Tower technology but also uh there is representing Nera here so uh there if you can uh maybe introduce the audience to n and then the remote Tower technology yes pleas sure thank you Asam and once again thank you very much for being part of this panel with these esteemed guests also it’s great uh to meet them uh this morning good morning everybody my name is Dez I work for Nera so Nera is is standing for New Era uh company which is fully owned by sand Saudi a navigation Services we are essentially a commercial or consultancy arm of of Sans so we deploy within uh Saudi Arabia and Beyond of course digital tower solutions so we have uh the very first ever remote Tower Center uh in jeda very soon going to launch um fully operational control of alola airport which is almost 600 kilometers away so we’re in the trial testing phase right now and we’ll be hopefully inshah moving forward to full deployment and operations by end of July so that’s the first ever remote Tower Center uh in in Saudi will take up to three airports completely um and just reference the discussion on uh AI you know machine learning and Big Data um the whole industry is moving forward to digitalization as as we mentioned hence the reason we’re here talking about what what does the future hold and essentially that uh you know the the the the dfr rules as we were just talking about earlier VFR IFR and now digital flight rules potentially through regulatory approval processing and uh regulatory journey is really going to support of course the industry moving forward where the digital Tower solution is really helpful is when we look at the likes of the infrastructure verti ports heliports uh fatos and all of these elements that will be built and operational within the next few years really if we think about it at Major urban areas like jeda you know you name it any big city area you know they’re going to need some level of control harmonization integration and again in relation to the technology the technology on its own is one element of the bigger picture right so I mean if you talk about data the technology presents us and provides us with data Reams and reams of data but we need the ability to understand that data make good decisions on that data how to act what do we spend our time resources and money on make sure that that’s done correctly and obviously gain the benefit and the efficiency so so where is the need and how is that then you know addressed and and how we move forward so from the digital tower part also I mean you know we look at uh efficiencies how we gain efficiencies particularly in the in the airport Arena airport area from arrivals departures but also ramp management you know I read an interesting statistic recently from boing you know for ramp management if you’re to save 10 minutes on a turnaround uh annually over a fleet over a year that’s going to give you an extra 200 flights which is remarkable for a 10-minute saving each time you’re going to in 200 flights annually so that’s that’s a very interesting statistic technology can help you get there but then also utilizing that technology correctly making accurate decisions on deploying that so I mean the digital AI solution is the way forward to do that the human has only certain amount of capability so having the machine learning and AI is going to help you get there no absolutely I think some of the new technologies that we have and the enhanc Imaging but also the adsp surveillance capabilities that we have some of the data analytics that are coming out out of the industry there are some very good solutions that help us optimize the operations that are various companies are working at to solute defining the solution but talking about innovation in general R&D and the moving forward there is a big push to set up some Regional Center of Excellence all over the world we looking at companies like Tales company like Boeing but even some of the anps who have traditionally set up these R&S uh in various areas to help Foster this relationship so har if you can just introduce or some of the work that Talis is doing in terms of R&D where the centers are how you’re collaborating with other stakeholders to develop these capabilities um please thank you um I think what is important is to be able to collaborate in Bey Innovations what we are looking at is collaborations with uh with with asps uh on new technologies uh and to provide tools which enables to uh validate conops uh in a near operational environment so somehow something which can reproduce the realt but without having the safety issues that we can have you know if we are using the real systems so that’s what we have done big platforms digital platforms which enables to conduct uh uh some and to develop some use cases with NPS we have three Labs today uh we have a lab in France we have a lab in Singapore and we have a lab in Australia uh the way we are working uh with NPS is really based on collaborations meaning that it can be joint lab such as we are co-developing uh with Engineers from the nsps and of course I mean every all the conops and the use cases are defined using G methodologies uh I mean working with air traffic controllers uh so that we are defining togethers what we’re going to develop in terms of use cases um the way we are implementing that it’s really working together so meaning uh mix of experts which can come from Tes mix of experts that are coming from the nsps and we can harmonize the research which is done on the various uh practice of labs so basically work which will be done in France could be reused in Australia or in Singapore basically I think what we are to encourage is really to be able to reuse activities that we are doing uh in different Labs which of course is bring will bring a lot of synergies so the might be some interest in the region also I’ve heard like different entities are setting up research centers so potentially there will be some room for collaboration between Talis and the nsps in the region yeah so so we are ersing as collaborations we have different topics uh that we need to look at I mean we have developed as I mentioned some digital platforms so for instance we have developed an ATM twin to be able to develop New Years cases and to test this to test these use cases a new real enironment we are working on trajectory based operations uh developing ffis that type of stacks and activities we are working on Ani uh AI implementations of AI on uh CDR that type of activities I mean conflict detections of course how can use a eyes well here an architecture I mentioned at the beginning that uh the way the systems are evolved they are going to go toward digital but behind that there is a lot of complexity because of cyber security because of safety so that requires also some activities in terms of research uh we are going to uh change the way we are working and that’s also what we are looking as part of the of the Innovations absolutely in collaborations yes thank you hary but from the let’s say the aircraft manufacturer side or another perspective Larry if you want to add something to how to develop an R&D capability and also what you’re doing currently I’d be happy to um so Boeing has uh 11 uh R&D centers around the world uh us Latin America and Brazil uh here in the Middle East including Saudi Arabia uh India China uh Korea Japan Australia and the UK Europe um and so all of these labs are connected um so that they can collaborate uh uh on activities uh that have a impact across our company um at the same time uh these Labs uh collaborate uh with uh the air traffic control systems uh the airline Operation Center um in order the airports in order to emulate uh the operational environment in which our aircraft fly uh this is really important um because uh our aircraft uh operate in a system of system environment and uh the only way that the system is operated is that of all of the parties that are participating in this environment are collaborating together um we do not progress uh without that collaboration and and that is uh very very important so when we um before we move to let’s say an operational trial uh we will try to we will emulate the the experiment uh that we want to validate uh in collaboration with all these other parties uh so we’ve worked closely with the FAA uh and connected with the faas uh and NASA’s uh uh Air Traffic Systems um the same applies in Europe uh with uh the uh with the single European Sky Advanced research program project and um and it’s through that opportunity we begin to understand some of the impacts uh before we actually apply it uh in actual test flights either for our own aircraft uh where we flew last year across the Pacific uh with on an FAA program uh testing trajectory based operation uh Concepts or uh with our um Urban immobility platforms um and our UTM system that we’re developing um where we’ve been testing that uh with the FAA uh as well as New Zealand and Australia so uh key piece is the collaborator collaborative environment first and then the transition to actual operational test programs uh that uh validate the concepts okay so the first use case or the test case for an R&D that’s currently happening among other things things as uavs and Corin I think your company is taking the lead and developing some of those solutions to deconflict uh uavs with other uh aircraft or flying objects can you elaborate on how you guys are going ahead with some of those research what are you looking at and um making it forward in terms of skyroads and what they’re doing absolutely yes thank you I and I’d like to leave with you in the audience here why it’s so timely that we’re having this discussion very right here in Riyad at this point in time um as as has been mentioned before we’re at an interesting juncture in Industrial Development um aviation industry as has been mentioned too is safety conscious and needs to provide a system of systems that is extremely um robust in its safety application at the same time we are at an in a in a in a Time where a new type of use of air is coming up um you’ve all heard about the EV TOS that are being developed um if you have the time and move over to the Ritz hotel there’s an eall um exhibit over there with some Vehicles out there that you’ll want to see um the interesting thing is that all of these vehicles and the operational concepts are being developed by companies which are substantially smaller than the companies that our friends here are coming from and if we are ever to give them a chance of um realizing what some people call disruptive innovation but really it’s not disruptive it’s using the aviation safety principles and applying new methods to realizing it and and and allowing the public to use a new type of aerial service so now having said that we need to make sure that this new form of Transport is as safe as the old form was and the only way to do that is through real life experimentation and i’ I’d like to leave with you the importance of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has a unique position in realizing this new form of Transport because here we actually have environmental conditions that allow us to do that at relatively low risk as you all know if you want to fly new types of aircraft or um operationalize new operation modes you have to do risk assessments and the risk is strongly related to the quality of the vehicle how it behaves but also to what damage it can do in its environments now in this particular country we have fascinating use cases that pose relatively low risk to the outside world and therefore would allow us to accelerate our learning process now I’m part of a Consortium that is putting together different industry verticals to test exactly that in this beautiful country but having said that we need to make sure that it remains integrated with traditional Aviation now your question was how do we make sure that any new mode of Transport is as safe as the old um versions were as as transport is today um what we’re doing as a company is we are flying unmanned aerial vehicles within controlled airspace in Germany which is very very unusual indeed um we do that together with um the local Air Traffic Control entity um as many of you know there are different in in Europe there every nation has its own um Air Traffic Control organization but they overlap regionally um we have in southern Germany we have the interesting situation that a lot of airports are man mandated by Austrian Air Traffic Control not by German air traffic control Austria being a small country they have a very small air traffic control system which means it’s flexible another element that we’re seeing here in Riyad with um Sans gaka and and the organizations here they are prepared to be flexible in their application of existing rulle making so take away from here that this is a very interesting opportunity to actually test and make sure that a new mode of 3D transportation is as safe as the old one was sure thank you thank you Corin um so uh haa from your side from Euro control perspective some ideas about R&D and what’s happening some of the Cesar initiatives yes thank you Asim I fully support what uh Kobe said regarding the overlaps in Regional perspective and Euro control has the UH responsibilities on this respect and provides assistance to avoid that kind of overlaps also IQ Regional Offices is here so they are also taking an important role to get rid of that kind of overlaps but it is also essential to disseminate the data sharing information and uh using the a available resources in an appropriate manner Euro control IQ Regional Offices aasa and that kind of safety organizations are really uh an important uh key institutions to provide solutions to these kind of challenges but uh with your permission aim I would like to approach the issues on R&D you said euro control has R&D uh uh institution in Britany and providing all the technical support and Innovation uh opportunities uh and up to now they have provided so many important technological uh improvements uh in the sector and uh there is a need to integrate the Technologies the current traditional Technologies with the uh Advanced Air Mobil ities because the future will be with Advanced Air mobilities no doubt but I have another issue Asim we have the Technologies we have the regulatory issues but what about the experts do we have enough experts to use these Technologies I believe after the pandemic aviation industry has shortening of the experts as it was the case for the other Industries therefore we need to find a suitable way to train people to find new experts but it is not uh an issue easy issue it is a challenging one therefore with by using the normal traditional training methods it’s not so easy to train the people uh to replace the previous experts therefore we need to use the emerging Technologies again in the forthcoming period which is which are available and by using augmented realities or visual realities for having training the experts which provides 90% focus on technical issues four times faster and 52% cost-saving Technologies so by by using this emerging Technologies I believe we may train the people we may have additional experts to use these available Technologies no definitely the the use of technology in ANP is obviously growing especially with the uavs we are seeing CNS ATM calibration activities ILS calibration being done through drones that’s actually in practice today we are seeing obstacle surveys being carried out by drones so in some of the other use cases uh Dez maybe you can throw some light on these areas that are being explored yeah just as supporting the discussion here really in relation to um having the talent available to understand the new challenges ahead with digitalization so for example AI autonomous um aircraft AV toall and the regulations behind to support that but also what we’re finding particularly in the digital Tower digital realm is skill set is changing so skill said is about more about the managing the digitalization versus control versus monitoring versus management and so on and we sort of found that through history when we see the evolution of the cockpit through airb through Boeing and so on and so forth so kind of what we’re what we’re seeing is this new era of skill set training um we we have obviously history behind us in learning about these newcomers to airspace new airspace users so EV provid ERS you know Air Taxi drones for delivery medac you know emergency medac and and transport of organs etc etc right so so all of these new elements are now showing up um they’re environmentally friendly of course they’re obviously congestion in big urban areas I mean we all were driving in uh Riyad last night and this morning um and we know what the traffic is like so this is obviously an environmentally friendly sustainable solution to go to the air you know bring EV TOS drones and so on so that’s pushing risk in a different direction than what we were traditionally used to so again when we talk about the regulatory approval process I attended a meeting yesterday the the gaka uh representative was talking about having very very clear engagement with stakeholders very transparent engagement very transparent regulations and of course that the the regulation regulatory body will support the industry rather than than than hindering the industry of course there are certain levels of of of restrictions we you know we all have to have to apply when we look at the ATC element and let’s say controlling drones or EV toall on man on man Vehicles we also have to be ready you know and uh we’re seeing seeing it already for example two of our main customers from ATC perspective Saudia and FAS have orders already for Ev aircraft you know they want to start triling and testing in jeda and ran in 2026 and we’re halfway through 2024 so that’s not far away you know so so Sans and N are you know obviously engaging with them to support that trialing testing phase and so on again applying very rigorous safety uh risk assessment definitely absolutely and Javier From caner perspective like for research but also you guys have done some work in uh space operation near space operation and space CDM can you throw some light on the work that was done uh on that area and in general also yes and also just to go back to just to fill in collabor operation is essential so before we do any of the trials within the Latin American and Caribbean region we actually work together with the with IO the regulator the NP and the airline so we we do get together we want to see which route we want to start going and that’s when it it took us to space CDM so because of the increase of a space operations uh within the lack region okay we were force in a good way uh to start communicating how we can optimize and make sure that the commercial activities were not impacted so much by the closing of the airspace okay the uh the hazard areas so what we did was we we were working together uh with the FAA at space UPS uh with the space SpaceX NASA and also the anps that were affected by the closing of the airspace and we actually were able to enhance actually move the launch period to non Peck times and also to analyze the days that were not uh so busy within that within those airspace to make sure that the commercial Aviation were not impacted it was not easy because as you know when you do a launch Larry knows more than I when you do a launch there’s a whole bunch of mathematical computation ation that you have to take into consideration uh but this collaboration allowed us to understand and the new entrance space Ops has just been forever but the new entrance understood what how they’re going to impact the commercial side and we were able to get into an agreement to make sure that we’re not much of an impact in that side no appreciate that and definitely collaborative decision making among stakeholders among Regulators is very important moving any technology forward in any way um so I think in in closing what I would like to ask each one of you if you can briefly give one idea that what’s currently not in practice but you see coming up in the next 5 to 10 years something that’s currently in research that we may not have heard or we may know but we don’t know but just briefly one or two sentences about an idea so that we can take it away with us to say that’s something I want to do at at my airport or within my NSP uh I’ll start from har yourself uh just something you mean in 10 years what will we see in 10 years um I think uh you mentioned that the industry is changing uh is becoming more and more digital uh AI is coming but at the end what we will see in terms of the industry itself it would be much more integrated I think in terms of uh in 10 years I think there will be genuine uh implementations of uh uh the trajectories share their trajectories between the different stakeholders up to the fact that uh uh you can negotiate trajectories between the ground and uh and the and the and the pilots also in the integration of the drones among this among this overall airspace that’s what I think I mean much better Integrations of all the VAR stakeholders of aviations excellent thank you aier one idea that you think will happen in the future let’s look into the think of many ideas but just bring it out to one is it’s very simple technolog is there we talking about a trajectory based operations but we need a whole bunch of uh supporting swim uh cpdlc a regional air traffic flow management and actually that in in time information sharing is essential yes so one the digitalization is there how can we move forward together with the regulator with the anps and the airlines to make sure that all the systems are integrated because right now there are many systems that do not talk to each other so we need to make sure those systems are integrated to make sure we move on forward to the Advanced Air mobility and everything else that there is at absolutely um Corin from your side because I know uavs will need that integration but what are the the biggest enabler you see in the future that will make it happen thousands of drones flying around or uavs vertiport working um I’d like to point out that while we are used to Aviation being a monolithic Industrial topic we’re moving a new type of Transportation in from the bottom yeah um which has the potential to revolutionize land transport in Urban Air Mobility we can realize Transportation at the same energy and price points as landbased Transportation on short ranges but this potential needs to be unlocked by a digital management system that reduces significantly human interaction with the system in order to be safe and in order to be efficient now I won’t don’t want to disagree with the fact that technology exists technology of course exists but a fully automated traffic management and vehicle guidance systems has not been implemented so far and in order to do that we need to test ideas and I think that’s what I want to leave view with any region City national government that is willing to commit to real life sandboxes with an implementation model coupled to it is going to win the game okay I appreciate that thank you uh Larry from your side from what you have seen what you project ahead I’d say that right now uh Boeing uh has a subsidiary called whisk whisk is developing a four passenger fully autonomous Urban Air Mobility vehicle uh that platform will be flying uh Beyond Visual and of site in the Earth space within the next five uh to uh certainly 10 years uh we’re working with um Regulators around the world uh to uh help them understand uh some of the key issues uh to ensure that uh a uh a fully autonomous platform can uh fly uh Beyond visual an of sight missions and an integrated airspace um to bring this capability to uh to the Forefront and um and uh so we’re taking our conops that we’ve developed uh for the FAA We’re translating that to uh a conops that will apply uh in Europe and uh will’ll apply in other locations around the world so um that’s uh that’s my vision of uh to answer your question question thank you Dave yeah um thank you very much great question so so in n and and sanss we obviously have strategy and our strategy in N is based on bounds of Horizons so Horizon 1 Horizon 2 3 four and so on um so looking at those Horizons we’re looking forward essentially into the future crystal ball what will ATM what will airspace look like and and really it’s what we just talked about which is full integration of UAM aam B Voss aircraft fully digitalized yeah fully autonomous aircraft operating almost similar to a Star Wars movie should I dare to say this but then again through a very rigorous safety risk assessment approval regulatory approval process and having to take a level of triling and risk and I think here in uh Saudi Arabia as just mentioned it’s really a a perfect opportunity that the appetite is there the regulatory framework is there and being developed uh the appetite is there from Sands for example only ansp within the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia um to develop that technology and those uh let’s say use cases trial cases and some of that is existing already in the likes of neom and uh things like this so so we do have plans to to obviously cater for that as I mentioned you know some of our main um customers have orders in already they have plans we’re engaged with them on how to manage that for them and support them in delivering that that trials in in 2026 and so on thank you thank thank you Dez and I last word or like you know your thoughts on the future thank you and I believe this is time to transform the Technologies to the implementation uh for uh having the highest level of safety but time is to have Collective commitment from each parties from regulatory authorities to the stakeholders airspace us users and all of them to keep collaboration cooperation and coordination uh and it will be the opportunity for all over the industry to step to have step forward having high level of Safety and Security uh otherwise we will have difficulties to have spending our resources in a different way so efficiency is one of the most important important issue and sustainability uh is also another one but only cooperation and collaboration and sharing the proper data on time avoiding duplications in the sector will be the key issues for the next 5 years I believe perfect um just a thought from my side also I think the the big CAPIC related to CNS ATM the the the concept may change it may become uh CNS ATM as a service we already looking at some of the oems offering these to say that we will provide that as a service rather a subscription model to the latest and the greatest technologies that they have rather than a oneof purchase every 7 eight years that will evolve enabling the UTM to work some of the smaller players who will control some of these hundreds and thousands of flying objects so this scale will somewhat become smaller but broader so that’s something to look at and um see how it evolves now we’ll open up for questions uh we have do not have too much time but probably a couple of questions and then we’ll obviously be around for answering any um so anybody uh want to open for questions please um well um thank you very much very interesting um I I lost part of the conversation so uh regarding artificial intelligence uh but just your introduction please like uh my name is Victor aado um I used to be engaged in air traffic management yeah um artificial intelligence uh machine learning great uh but it will come a point to the decision making so it is good that the machine learns it’s good that to have all the information it’s good to data mining but the question is decision making and the decision making probably this is the problem with The Regulators how do you regulate a decision making of a machine that has been learning without knowing what has been learned that’s the first thing second regarding the um a CTR or when a so there’s many different ways you could look at that uh and how that would be managed so of course plugging the digital Tower here but um I mean a digital solution in my opinion is is how that can be managed at lowlevel airspace in urban areas with verti ports and having a level of maybe intervention from the ground to control them and so uh kin you wanted to add something to this I’d like to add Excuse me yes um I’d like to add two aspects um that I heard in your question number one the word AI covers a wide range of applications philosophy Concepts um if we want to certify anything it has to be deterministic you know that what comes out related to what goes in as long as it’s not deterministic it’s not going to happen period there is AI that is going to be extremely helpful in optimizing traffic patterns uh we’ve heard about um apron management etc etc perfect um if you want to create a safety critical system what goes in you need to know what comes out when what goes in so you have to make up your own mind how far far you want to use AI there um where the Advanced Air Mobility is concerned and I heard you talk about sensing um there and and deconfliction um sense and avoid it’s becoming increasingly clear that the automotive concept of smart Vehicles only goes so far in aviation if you need to use onboard sensors for nominal operations you will have cost levels and sensors that approach vehicle cost levels it is not going to work so there’s going to be a substantial element of ground sensing in Advanced Air mobility in order to be cost effective okay thank you uh unfortunately we have run out of time for more questions but I’ll be available and I think some of my fellow panelists will be available but please join me and thanking them for their valuable contribution and thank you all for attending this session and looking forward to collaborating with most of you or some of you in the future thank you [Music] e [Music] here hello good morning thanks all everyone for being here my name is Lorenzo Tron I’m one of the partners of the Oliver WI practice in transportation and infrastructure very happy to be here with the experts here in the uh Aviation and Mobility infrastructure to basically talk about a bit of the trends of the future of travel when we look at future of travel obviously we we understand that there are lots of things changing from the passenger side from sustainability aspects integration with the air Mobility with Urban Air Mobility especially so typically when we look at that it’s like five topics that we look uh and that we explore from the sustainability aspects uh how to achieve Net Zero how also to integrate the technological innovations that uh we understand are very important especially for the passenger experience the Intermodal connectivity uh the Workforce itself which is a big topic as well and then last but not least the passenger experience Evolution which is something that is very very important and very relevant for that topic so there are many challenges and multiple opportunities that will arise in the region also globally and I wanted also to share this discussion with colleagues here with uh four different experts from engineering background from the urban aob ility background from The Faculty so here I want to open the stage uh for uh for Dr nadani Damian kisley John rivy and Dr feti shil so if you can introduce yourselves yes hello everyone my name is Nadin itani I’m a lecturer and program leader for Air transport management at the University of sari uh I focus on operational research and I’ve been involved in several projects in the midle East and North Africa with Airline airports and Aviation Regulators as well and I’m so happy to be here thank you great uh nice to meet you I’m Daman kley I’m the head of infrastructure for Europe and the Middle East at skyports uh skyports is a uh relatively new company we’ve been around for about six years and we’re exclusively focused on enabling the new generation of electric Aviation um so we’re developing infrastructure developing and operating infrastructure for the new type of aircraft as you may see outside Jo Jo be an an Archer um we’re based in London but uh very active pres across the world specifically in the Middle East nice to meet you good morning all I’m John Rey uh I work with an engineering consultancy called mck McDonald um my background is predominantly in in the Middle East but I lead our Europe Aviation practice um across the spectrum of advisory planning and design of airports and vertic ports good morning everyone my name is uh Dr FTI FTI shil uh working for Jacobs and as well we founded and the CEO of vport uh one of the vport operators Jacobs is one of the leading company for design uh of uh of course airport as well and we be happy to discuss today this very important subject about advanet Mobility will have impact on the aviation on Airport uh very dramatic for the next couple of years thank you very much and looking first at the infrastructure side so Dr itani in your opinion when you oversee like everything that is happening the global Trends what do you think is like do you see as the main Trends in terms of the airport infrastructure design Etc that will be embedded to not only guarantee the operational ability of the airports right the seamless travel experience but also on the sustainability side yeah well I mean the international uh uh the AATA uh International Aviation transport agency has um uh presented the major risks facing air transportation in the coming few years in terms of the probability of occurrence and also in terms of their impact and in the top left uh top right quadrant we have uh the climate change issues and of course the economic downturns so in terms of climate change I think there’s a big space and opportunity for airports uh to contribute in this space and also in the race uh towards net zero uh this would require Innovative approaches uh in terms of um the development also going Beyond perhaps their Core Business of providing infrastructure or buildings and also contributing to creating to creating and producing this new um Aviation um fuel or the supply chains the energy Supply chains so if we look I mean in terms of History airports have a strong and successful track record in private Public Partnerships and of course we require the involvement of different stakeholders in order to create this opportunity so if airports would play their role in the production and distribution of this new energy in this supply chain it will definitely uh create uh more non Aviation revenues for them and they could capture part of the uh of the earnings as well and this would be a good opportunity for the sector to uh achieve Net Zero uh targets very good I think very insightful so Mr rivy on uh your expertise on the design of the airports what would you add in terms of like the design and what needs to happen in the future to also complement that and also with the look of like the sustainability and how these will impact the airports I think the if you’re starting from a clean sheet of paper designing an airport from scratch you would do it very differently the challenge is the majority of the airports already exist they’re large pieces of infrastructure um so you’re you’re looking at how do you modify something that then becomes more sustainable has a lower carbon footprint and becomes climate resilient um unfortunately a month ago in Dubai the industry saw what climate resilience really means the level of flooding that happened very quickly infrastructure exists there is drainage at Dubai airports um but it wasn’t up to the level that was required on that day and our challenge with with airport design and airport airport planning is it’s actually harder to retrofit and change something that already exists um I’ll give you another example at he throw Terminal 1 has been decommissioned for a number of years um at heatrow but it’s too complex too costly to actually remove the building to allow the airport to develop with a new terminal that is then more sustainable is improved customer experience um and that challenges the timeline of your of your airport development so I think yeah we we’re moving in the right direction we’re we’re identifying what we need to do um what we need to protect for um and it’s no longer a one in 100-year storm example it’s a one in 20 uh 20e storm but retrofitting a large piece of infrastructure to be more sustainable to be carbon reduced um and to be climate resilient is a significant challenge that comes that comes at a cost unfortunately and like looking at also the integration for example with the Urban Air mobility and everything that obviously needs to be done for the passenger experience in your opinion Mr casley H what do you think are the design elements that are really needed to make sure that the infrastructure and the design of the airports and we have new terminals coming uh even in the region new airports in Riad for example but how to make sure that these elements are captured and that are embedded into the design of the airports sure um so we’re in a point in time where we’re in front of an opportunity to redefine the way people engage with Aviation uh typically today you have airports which are on the outskirts of cities uh people don’t tend to fly within within a city uh that they they tend to use aircraft to to move between regions or obviously continents but electric Aviation advanc and Mobility presents the opport opportunity to to change that and flip it on its head the challenge we’re facing is similar to what John was talking about retrofitting uh existing airport to serve very different type of aircraft is extremely challenging uh costly and often impossible when it comes to uh creating a passenger Journey that saves time the the whole premise of of advanc mobilities to save people time to avoid congestion to create connectivity between the airport and City Center which can take 10 minutes instead of uh significantly more using ground transport um but to develop vertiport which is infrastructure for electric aircraft at an existing airport uh which optimizes for cost passenger experience and safety of course is number one is extremely challenging um typically uh you have major constraints within the a space uh you’re combining uh you’re bringing aircraft which weighs three tons uh with um a380s in the same as space um at the same time you want to be as close as possible to to minimize that transfer the the made the customer Journey as smooth as possible uh so combining these two factors is extremely difficult uh and that that’s that’s why I think here in the Middle East and specifically in the Kingdom there is a number of amazing opportunities where that can be done with a blank sheet of paper done from scratch um and really optimized from from the very beginning for uh connecting traditional Aviation with with this new era of electric flight so I think very good points on that and uh I think we were discussing it even earlier with Dr shabil and uh I would ask also if you have anything to add in terms of the design the integration of the urban and mobility and what do you see when here we have a bit of more clean sheet of paper as we mentioned before that we can obviously work uh to integrate this experience and make sure that this is seamless for the passenger actually the the advancer mobility is three key uh main stream right now going in parallel so the EV TOS which is the advanced the electrical vertical takeoff and lending machine this is the industry that’s almost 300 uh company one the world right now doing developing these EV TOS almost handed prototypes uh it’s billions of dollars invested in that uh stream so this is a lot of investment the technology there is available it’s it just how to make it happen that’s why we have as much as you know 600 prototype think about that 600 type of uh aircraft exist today that they are developing ground World um the second pillar of the advanc a Mobility is the vort the infrastructures so players like skyboard like vports like round uh uh we don’t have that much today but definitely we’ll have many and the the key challenge of these is to position to locate this vport within the framework of the aviation industry today so for instance for example the developing the vport into by airport which is challenging developing vport in airport where we have already traffic is really challenging we don’t go we don’t need vertiport right now in cities where we don’t have that much traffic because drained by the traffic by definition so they can sustain the the business but the challenging uh is the location of the vort the the third pillar we don’t talk about but this is really crucial and critical which is the airspace integration we cannot develop this industry if you don’t have an airspace that cater this traffic we cannot get the EV toll within Dubai airspace so there is no advanc air Mobility whatsoever forget it today I think people in interested by the aviation or involved in aviation they understand understand very well the concept of slots today is very complicated to have slots in different airport go to Amsterdam go to Paris go to Dubai Hong Kong these airport are important heat throw extremely important getting an aircraft within the airspace of that airport forget it think about an EV toll right now to get in there I mean it’s extremely challenging and complicated so doesn’t mean we will stop here that’s not the point at all the point is to understand these three pillars and then build around that the challenge for the uh how to get the V Port within the airport it’s it’s difficult today it’s because many airport their master plan is is closed it’s fixed I mean they have to balance they have to to think about should I develop cargo facility should I develop M facilities where it’s like we have investors today they will invest today we have the client today they already signed the industry is mature enough or should I develop a v Port that I don’t know exactly how things will go this is challenging that any airport operators will tell you about it’s exactly their day-to-day business very simple example Toronto Toronto is very important so almost 60 million packs and then talk to Toronto today and ask for develop anything you want to develop in terms of vport they will tell you look I have a long list of waiting list today of mros they have to develop and this is real because this Toronto is important so this is the challenge that the advanced a Mobility is facing every day and this is not new challenges happened before when the aviation started I mean we when we start new industry we will always find like how to integrate and this time right now for the next 3 five years is crucial for the industry because as skyport is doing right now with RTA or or any other players is really challenging discussions let’s goes through details and this really um uh it will take a lot of time to integrate but back again to my point airspace integration is one of the key challenges integrating the the uh vport within the master plan of many airport is the second I think major challenge that we we are experiencing right now for advancer Mobility integration uh those are very very valid points and I completely agree that these are challenges that will have to be solved looking a bit more not only at the airport itself but the urb Mobility as like a full value chain what do you think are the key investment probably opportunities or the key things that the players should really um spend more time and effort in terms of the uh at the beginning of the journey with the passengers or like or at the end and how to make sure that you also have the integration with the retail experience and with everything that is around the ecosystem so maybe to starting with uh Mr K so so to use Dubai as a as a sort case study in Dubai RTA um got the mandate to to launch a network of uh air taxis across Dubai by 2026 and they’re starting with a network of four verts in the key locations of Dubai uh Dubai International Dubai downtown Dubai Marina and palm jera uh and skyboard we are tasked to to develop develop and operate that infrastructure by 2020 so we already have a very tight timeline uh to get that up and running and that’s building verts on top of existing structures next to uh one of the biggest International Airport uh when it comes to connecting flights in the world um so a lot of our attention is into making sure that uh whatever we design and develop actually works uh to uh to the benefit of the project which is as I said that the time saving is the the North Star uh of advanced Mobility if we’re not saving time for people the the service will will not be uh will not fulfill it its its objective uh so spending time or investing into um as FY said the the airspace integration working with the ANP uh to uh create new airspace Concepts which allow these aircraft to fly efficiently and safely in the new airspace uh these aircraft will launch VFR uh daytime VFR uh they cannot hold or hover for a very long time so they need pretty efficient uh air routing to be able to reach the destination um and land as scheduled the other major area of of uh investment that is required is electrification uh these aircraft need a lot of juice to recharge uh in very short period of time uh each vertiport will uh will need an order of two to three megawatt uh of power uh to recharge this aircraft um and typically sites are at capacity or Urban sites are capacity uh same with airport so it’s quite difficult to uh to get that amount of power to the sites where we where we require it um and lastly uh the area of of of uh investment that that requires a lot of intention is the multimodal integration and so making sure that whenever passengers get off the service they have an efficient way of getting to their end destination uh it’s going to be a number of years probably decades until we see Point 2 point connectivity using using these aircraft within cities uh this will require infrastructure massive infrastructure development uh on top of existing structures on top of new developments uh but I’m trust that we’ll get there as we prove the usefulness of of this type of um tto’s new Mobility um but investing in the multimodel integration where uh there’s a seamless connection um from the first leg of the journey to the verot um and then at the end to get to the Final Destination and that can be through various means in Dubai we’re integrating with the Metro we’re integrating with uh Uber and other types of uh car services uh to make sure that um the overall time spent for the passenger on the journey is minimized to the absolute minimum good anything to yeah um maybe to add in terms of investment I think we need to see it like three again three uh business bus models here that we have to build around the investment in terms of advanced a Mobility so depending on your business model so if you are structured more related to Urban Advanced Mobility Urban Advanced Mobility is within the city so it’s basically within Dubai within Riad within uh again Toronto or Montreal or Paris you have you want to develop very small uh distance like short distance point to point for people to move here there’s a different business case than if you want to develop uh Regional Air Mobility so for example in Dubai between Dubai and Chara Dubai rasa or in Riyad within different Regional like longer distance different type of aircraft different type of investment or the third pillar in terms of business model is Cargo cargo is extremely important for advanc a Mobility it will drive a lot of investment in terms of uh business case as you can see this different business cases different investment type of investment that we we need to think of regardless of the business case here if you’re talking about investment for each one there is another level which is the airspace configuration today we cannot fly EV to to make it financially viable if we use the existing air navigation system that exist today it’s a different business it’s completely different way of flying they don’t have the same they communicate the same differently completely between regular normal aircraft airb 320 for example or JY or Archer aircraft sensors will should be developing the air navigation system that is to integrate this aircraft within the airspace is completely different we cannot move the same we cannot have 3 minutes or 4 minutes between one and the other aircraft to sustain the viability of the business of this industry it will not go that way so if there is a kind of emergency or urgency in terms of investment start with the airspace don’t start with anything anything else we can refit uh existing helipad could be used for this is I’m sure this is the the case today that will be easy we can manage it and you see Regulators today a lot of them they use the existing helipad regulations to to like for vti operat but the investment that will be very valuable and good business case uh is on the airspace integration and air traffic management that’s start there that’s the investment we need today to enable this industry to fers from this part so I I dare to uh disagree a little bit I think for day one we have what we need in terms of the airspace you know we can use existing VFR VFR uh routes um the the aircraft that job or Archer or any of the other Front Runners uh are certifying they will be equipped with the same technology the helicopter has uh in terms of communications um so they can launch using the existing uh airspace um I agree that it it’s probably not enough to sustain long-term uh sustainability of the of the service uh and reach the scale or capacity uh that this this industry requires um but in terms of launching day one um there’s nothing really stopping us on the airspace side of things uh but I agree in terms of sustaining the service and the growth of the services potentially removing the pilot in the future that will require complete overhaul of the way s space is manag using UTM and and other Technologies um but I wouldn’t want to discourage anyone who’s trying to uh or any airpod who’s trying to Future proof uh the their master plan or um or launch a ver Bo it can be done using existing aspace structures there are some constraints to it but it can be done using the existing Technologies yeah I think one one of the challenges the or the the the immediate challenge of where investment needs to go there’s the over the last few years it’s been predominantly in the aircraft um and the technology of the aircraft we’re now in a transition to how do you move from aircraft prototypes through certification to operations to operate we need feasible sites and that’s where the investment is going to go in the in the next two years how do you determine if a site is feasible how do you spend the time and effort um theace integration is is one part of that the utilities integration is another part large cities are infrastructure that has been existing for a number of years already so it’s it’s not so easy to just establish a verd port in the middle of an urban environment part of the business case and making sure that you get you get the return there needs to be the demand there needs to be something that is is triggering the demand for the business case to work so is it a train station is it the multimodal connectivity uh is it a hospital from the point of view of a of a medical use case so you you might start with with individual zones or Target zones but as you start to look at the feasibility of how does that actually integrate into the urban environment into the airspace you’re finding the majority of sites are not suitable and so you’re spending a lot of time and money investing in that that due diligence of where do you actually want to put a ver Port because you should not put a ver Port just because it you know someone says it should be there it it needs to be feasable and it needs to make business sense well that’s great and I think we tackled a lot of topics on the mobility and the integration connectivity with the between the airport and the urban Mobility uh taking a bit of a step back Dr Rani in your view like looking more at like a broader view of like the airport and and Mobility Technologies in your studies would you like mind talking a bit about like the recent things or recent projects that you have been involved with to to expand a bit also more to be so I mean since our programs sit under social studies and social sciences so we approach the integration of Technology into processes and and systems from as well as social perspective as long as of course uh definitely it serves the uh operational uh benefits so integrating technology in the airport uh system would definitely lead to cost efficiencies operational efficiencies and also boost the passenger uh experience um in in terms of digital transformation for airports uh the focus currently is in three different uh initiatives the collaborative decision making where the airlines airports Air Traffic Control ground handling they all collaborate together to boost the efficiencies and optimize resources and this is already applied in 32 uh European uh airports uh other areas would include um passenger experience seamless uh travel and this is now more focusing on the walkth through experience so passengers are not interrupted they continue their uh journey in the terminal um so they walk through checken walk through security and immigration and so they can have more uh dwell time and enjoy other facilities in the airport which would definitely boost the commercial and non- aeronautical revenues um and the third aspect is the digital um Innovation uh Labs that um is being set up by different airports in different parts of the world so we have examples from shangi airport in Singapore Munich Airport Char go as well and a group of airports um the four airports in digital lab including Dubai airport and AATA has its digital lab as well but I would definitely consider and look at all of these Technologies and integration of Technologies in terms of the bigger picture worldwide especially that the international organizations have a duty in terms of um creating fair and more balanced share of this technology and the benefits of this technology so um there is a concern that these technology would create like a digital divide so between the global North and the global South uh and as per the uh Studies by the international uh trade and development organization um data security is a major concern moving forward so 20% of the countries worldwide they don’t have legislations to protect the data especially that most of us and in terms of passengers and also in terms of operations a lot of data is being interchanged so no legislations in 20% of the Nations and of course some nations are going to develop these legislations um another aspect would be um from a social perspective actually which is more linked to passenger profiling um screening and behavioral detection um we are looking also in this aspects in terms of studies uh to make sure that um the passengers are not being discriminated against so how could we ensure that pass profiling of course leads to the safety um benefits uh and more safe environments but at the same time um we are not uh compromising the bias or discrimination against specific uh or certain uh groups or ethnic groups or irrespective of their uh background so you have to to balance the two sides of the coin here yeah that’s a that’s a very good point and very valid I obviously that embedding the technology making sure that data data privacy is is there and it’s very very important and super relevant uh you touched up on on the passenger journey and obviously that the push of technology is to get the passenger Journey even more and more seamless touchless and making sure that it’s fast it’s integrated but at the same time we know that for airports and for the whole ecosystem the noner revenue which come from the retail and from all the opportunities to cross sell food and beverage and others are very very relevant and super important so John in your experience like what kind of in the new airport designs for example what needs to be there in terms of the digital elements but also in the design elements to make sure that you still have a seamless experience in in the future but at the same time you don’t lose the opportunity to potentially have a revenue like making profit out of it because I mean we know that the airport cannot survive only on a revenues and making fees Etc no so the the the passenger experience is is a key part of that um and yeah a question to the floor how many steps have we actually taken out of an airport journey in in the history of Aviation I think we’ve taken one step out and we’ve put multiple steps in the only step we’ve taken out historic clean airports is weighing a passenger that might be coming back in inverts but the the challenge we’ve got is with multiple stakeholders the process continues to evolve but is generating new touch points so security has become a a multi-step touch Point checkin in some airports is a two or three-step process we used to go to one desk now we go to a kiosk and a desk or you do it on on your app and what we’re what we’re seeing in airports is the the airports Drive is to be more efficient and and get more throughput through the same facility but in becoming more efficient it’s how do you adopt those technologies that enable the efficiency um knowing that certain touch points have to happen you you you you’ve got to have a transition of how do you hand over your bag to the ground Handler to the airport infrastructure how do you let the airline know that you’re at the airport so those those touch points will will exist what what they look like what they feel like that infrastructure starts to reduce and starts to move into your handheld device we’re seeing more countries uh and more governments move to e EV visas uh and advanced passenger information so there’s there’s more sharing of data before you even get to the airport before you travel that should be reducing the need for increased facilities at at an airport but what we find is the the adoption of the technology challenging so we’ve got an EV Visa but you’re still asked to provide the paper copy so you know which stakeholder is owning the data which stakeholder wants to see the data if we go back 152 years when we move from uh Paper Tickets to e tickets we had the same challenge we had airports that want to see the ticket before they let you in the front door that’s the airport that’s not even the airline step so the stakeholders colle collaboration in terms of how do you improve your passenger experience you you you all share the same customer all the stakeholders share the same customer you’re trying to get the the passenger through the facility quicker and as the airport you’re trying to get more rotations um through your facility so you you need an efficient airport the benefit of making the facility more efficient is your passengers can get through quicker and then they are in a captive area where they’re going to spend money uh because they’ve got time to kill and that that’s very diff to being in a shopping center if we go to a shopping center we go because we want something when we go to an airport we want to travel but we’re trapped and we see the various types of shops we see the food and beverage and so that attracts us to spend but that is now what’s changing as well we’re not browsing airport shops as much as we we used to if you you when when you those of you traveling out of Riad this this this week have a look around how many people are just sitting and dwelling waiting for their flight and they’re sitting on their mobile phones so how do we take the challenge we’ve now got in terms of utilizing airport infrastructure is how do we take that retail and food and beverage experience into the digital device and what we can get outside of the airport so if I if I want to order a a particular type of food I shouldn’t have to walk around the airport for 30 minutes trying to find that that type of Cuisine I can order it on my app I don’t care where it comes from I’m at boarding Gate 14 bring the food to me the challenge we’ve now got is airport infrastructure has not been built to allow bicycles or Segways to make way between between passengers and cross flows because there’s all these security barriers but we’re starting to to evolve that we’re starting to reutilize the space um and do that ontime delivery at the boarding gate because the the challenge for that passenger experience is particularly as we move into to bigger airports and and hubs I don’t want to miss my flight so I want to know where Gate 14 is I’ll get to Gate 14 I’ll sit there there seats and I’ll stay there I won’t spend any money but because our life now sits on a handheld device the retail experience has to change even in an airport to move to that to that handheld device and that changes how we think about moving Logistics through an airport not just passengers yeah that’s that’s a very important thing that definitely needs to be embedded in the future design and all in all to make sure that there is this balance and you don’t lose like as an airport the retail experience uh but we are talking a lot about like a perfect experience seamless travel Etc and one of the topics that we have seen in the recent news it’s obviously that there might be still some struggle in Europe and in some airports because of the Manpower because of like the shortage of people and the what caused after the pandemic and the peak of the traffic of people that will travel now so a bit like switching to the Manpower and to the capability side like Dr itan what is in your opinion like what are the main challenges and what do you see how do you see the evolution of like these elements and uh what is uh how to push and how to really to make sure that we promote enough the system and we make sure that the evolution is there so yeah I mean in terms of of uh shortages shortages now uh for the aviation Workforce has become a chronic issue right so uh the the industry has been facing this for quite some time now across different uh stages of the Spectrum in terms of attracting retaining uh and also in terms of uh maintaining this um infrastructure this Workforce and also upskilling um and I think this would require a comprehensive approach uh top down uh in terms of all the stakeholders because it’s everyone’s business from International organizations that are pushing for capability and NextGen Aviation professional initiatives to Industry um also to government agencies and also the definitely the um uh education institutions and training providers so if they all work together and they are actually to provide uh uh the Next Generation Aviation professional of opportunity um it would uh lead to good results but because apparently we are facing a battle in terms of talent and there is a competition among different sectors on the uh New Generation Talent so there’s a a very meaningful and important um initiative that has been put in place by the Department of Transport uh and the UK civil aviation Authority in this regard um which is actually addressing the first aspects which is attracting the next generation of Aviation professionals and they are working uh on focusing on Generation z um because in the coming period and actually we are living it now we are going to have intergenerational issues in the workplace so we have three generations working together in the aviation sector gen Zed um Millennials and Gen X as well and this could serve serve uh for greater opportunities in terms of knowledge transfer and mentoring um as well but of course it has its its set of challenges given that this new generation thinks differently uh they learn differently they have a different work attitudes um their meaning towards work is totally different they’d love to contribute to uh things that are meaningful um so understanding the Next Generation and working in terms of human resource capacity development on on boarding them by promoting Aviation as a space for Innovation uh is really important actually and also promoting Aviation as a place where this next Generation can have a global experience and can share uh this experience into contributing to solve Global issues like the climate change which is priority especially for the next uh generation very good um in terms of like these obviously are also Global Trends and things that we experience uh in multiple regions multiple countries as as mentioned uh what do you see as like when we given your experience in in the region and in in Saudi uh what do you see as like the most challenging and most pressing things that might be might need to be tackled here from a regulator point of view from uh the airports operators or even from the airlines point of view like more in general like encompassing a bit like what we have discuss discussed so far well I think I mean uh in terms of the general ecosystem and the evolution of the ecosystem it has developed at a really fast pace in Saudi Arabia and in the region in general so I think there’s a great opportunity where all the stakeholders are coming together and um talking to each other in terms of the uh organizational structures or the regulatory framework we’ve seen huge uh steps forward by gaka and also all the initiatives and innovative business models in terms of also internal Communications between these stakeholders and the external Communications how we are promoting um the uh civil aviation strategy and what’s the uh take or even the involvement of each of these stakeholders and how each uh agency or organization can can help and uh move forward in terms of uh human uh C capabilities and capacity I see a huge opportunity given that the Region’s um um in terms of uh Workforce uh is really it has a young age population um they are driven motivated um in terms of the education services and training capabilities they are also so underway um and when it comes to operational tactics the things that we were discussing back in these speakers Lounge which is making all this Vision come into practice so we’ve seen I mean in the uh in Europe this chaos in airports because of Staff shortages and I’ve just discussed a very huge and important initiative costing million of pounds in the UK but we are still experiencing this industry action and staff shortages so I think in the um in this part of the world and in Saudi Arabia there is more agility in terms of policy response in terms of policy actions that could be TurnKey solutions that can drive change and overcome the challenges that we might see in the coming years in different parts of the world thank you Dr shabil in the same topic what do you see as like the main challenges that that you could highlight given your experience in the region and given like what we have discussed on both like the mobility or the uh the airport ecosystem Manpower and everything like in in your mind like you have highlighted already like before some of the key challenges anything to complement and to also to to talk about that uh I will I will tackle your point on two subjects basically the airport design itself and the uh vertiport advanc air Mobility perspective advanc air Mobility perspective uh arithmetics are very clear uh when it’s Urban we compete against cars Vehicles so you will have choice between taking your car to go to your destination or take an an eeve to at Joby or Archer if it’s quicker byy car you will take your car it’s very it’s arithmetic so basically means uh there is no kind of uh commercial you know uh uh behind that don’t expect to have maybe coffee if you still drun coffee but I mean it’s it has to be uh no I don’t see and again it’s arithmetics we don’t see any kind of commercial non-al revenues out of when it’s Urban advancer Mobility as much as long as you’re to go through an uh an a port then you might need some services but again there is not that much we don’t see that much uh infrastructures in terms of non artical Revenue here because we have the assumptions that this is domestic still Dubai Dubai still Dubai Chara still Riyad Riyad but if it becomes International so for example the M uh bahin so which is like international business here change the dynamic because you will have a diff you will have you will be trapped at John mentioned you will be stuck in that in that box and you have to spend money uh somehow so then maybe it could be you could leverage this in terms of uh in terms of non-al Revenue uh so that’s that’s the angle of the Advanced Air Mobility honestly I don’t see that much it will not impact the business case of the vertiport uh when it comes to retails and it comes to non artical ding in terms of airport design yeah obviously today we saw the we see the experience uh um in different airports depending on the type of passengers you have the nonoptical revenue you know operators start to engage start to to enhance to increase but depends so the the the if you see the numbers and statistics the non itical Revenue in Dubai or in UAE different than in Saudi for different you know structure and framework so these are uh we have to to go through details to understand really what we what we could do in terms of uh enhancing the uh the revenue or enhanc Revenue in terms of I think Nan mentioned very well the the the challenge in term of resources um uh people think that technology will you know AA we we we hear a lot of changing you know uh we will have a the technology will will replace people but we say we are saying this for years right now but every day we are moving and we still having job for everyone the the the generational uh that’s happened as well before it’s I don’t see this challenge of course is that’s why we like this business there is a lot of challenges we have to face um I don’t see them like you know dramatically changing the framework of this industry people will continue fly we will find Solutions anyway we came from Co we almost died and then we are now like you know as as young as before so I don’t see any honestly changing the dynamic challenges exist of course we are not don’t don’t take it like you know there is no Challenge and everything is Pinky here not at all but we we learn how to fly we learn how to how to leave with this uh this kind of you know dramatic situation for the next couple of years John if you want to I I I I think for me we’ve got to the reason people work in aviation is there’s a passion and attraction for it and we need to keep that so as much as we move digital as much as we start to change what the roles are in an airport in an airline in different modes of of air Mobility that underlying passion has to remain and how you keep that passion growing how you leverage a Workforce as as Nadine was saying that that wants to learn that wants to to grow and develop that’s what’s changed we’ve got to capture that there’s you can do two or three jobs in one job description now um and as soon as airports and stakeholders collaborate in in in allowing that it changes the passion for the role rather than it being a boring job that was just single tasked it’s now about multitasking um the workforce very good same question so I’ll start with um the challenges we Face elsewhere uh Europe us wherever um things are incredibly slow regulation slow to adapt very risk averse there’s no top- down uh coordination from the government there’s no leadership to uh really deploy and introduce the this new type of Technology um and this sort of Cascades down when into planning permits uh and makes it very difficult for a completely new industry to stand up uh and create an investment opportunity for investors that is that is uh deliverable believable and attractive in the Middle East we don’t have that there there is a lot of top down leadership there’s a vision we’re but moving so fast that that creates its own challenges in terms of coordination um of different parts of government industry so um the good news is that there is solution to that uh what we’ve seen or experienced here is that there is a lot of willingness to get together on one table from all parts of uh of the industry government and create a unified coordinated pathway or road map that allows us to to bridge those challenges that come with speed uh and do it in a very efficient iterative way that that allows us to to realize the vision in the in the time frames that that we were setting ourselves um so yeah I would say that s of speed becomes a challenge in itself uh but it’s it’s a good thing any a way thank you very much uh now may be opening for questions from the audience okay we have a question over here uh thank you is the cost of trip the domestic trip is included in your design or is it not the cost is of the trip between the like I go from here to the airport how much is the cost for me to pay to use this facility it’s a it’s a good question um the launch price of most of the oems the the anticipated launch price will be around F $5 per passenger mile um so if your journey is 20 mil you’ll be in the region of1 $150 um but don’t quote me on that that’s obviously uh not not our business I know the landing fees uh I don’t know what the uh what the airline prices will be from the likes of Joe B Archer um but that’s the rough AIT of magnitude thank you hi uh thank you for this session I just wanted to check on uh what are the airports uh dealing with Mobility for those with disabilities or reduced Mobility we’re all aging at some point we need to have uh some of these uh AIDS right now what happens is everybody is treated as wheelchair bound if you have disabilities even though you may not need a wheelchair so are there uh features that you are looking in the airports infrastructure to cater for a aging population that is a growing um um demographics in terms of passengers um you’re absolutely right with with that challenge um and what we see today is airports trying to fit carts through passenger flows um the back of house flow is considerably worse uh than than than moving the golf carts through the passengers but what we’re seeing is why does that experience have to be degrading in some sense why do you have to try and shuttle everyone onto a golf cart through a crowded area airports in the Middle East have got a great product with their Magus terminals so why can’t that sort of concept of a of a separate terminal of a separate routing from the aircraft to the curb be utilized uh for various types of disabilities um and it’s it’s very reactive at the moment in in in short um Airlines when when you make a booking with an airline the airline will know what type of wheelchair passenger you’ve got but the airport and the other airport stakeholders will deal with the passenger as and when they arrive um and it’s a I I absolutely agree with you it’s a dreadful experience and and you’ll see often passengers who are wheeled on wheelchairs um parked up against a wall looking at the wall so they’re in a reduced Mobility Lounge but if they’ve been left there by an agent who will come and pick them up later but they’re facing a wall rather than being part of of the audience so there is an element of of training of of what is that type of Passenger experience how does that um evolve but also become natural um and it’s not only an infrastructure solution but we do have the opportunity with infrastructure to say there can be a different process there can be a different route um through the terminal um what we are also seeing is is some airports deal very well with the hidden disabilities um and the sunflower lanyards um and and knowing families who who travel uh with children with autism that is actually becoming a a positive in their experience and that they they will fly with a particular Airline through a particular routing because the airport is training its staff to deal with with hidden disabilities to prioritize those passengers not to treat them as a different type of Passenger um and I think that that that’s where it it it’s becoming a combination of factors but the primary one is is accepting there’s a a changing demographic um that have different requirements and how do you train your staff to react um and deal with with with those passengers uh thank you for the interesting session uh you mention uh a very interesting point that we want a touch less passenger journey in the airport but on the other hand we want to maximize the commercial uh profits from any airport and it is a basic model when we build or develop a new airport or a new design for so from your experience where is how you can see the middle point to achieve the touchless and seamless uh passenger journey and on the other hand to maximize the profit from the commercial area it’s and and that is through through definitely utilizing applications U so as as a frequent flyer we have an airline app but you go to an airport and the airport’s got a different app so how do you start to integrate the different apps you you’ve signed up to a an airline frequent flyer program you’ve given them your details you’ve given them your passport and more and more now you’re giving B Biometrics as well across the airport Community if the stakeholders can can collaborate uh and with the government entities allow the sharing of of certain um biometric data your activities can be done a lot more at your discretion at your choice um why can’t you do immigration and check in together the reason you can’t is it’s two different stakeholders um so at some point how does that Journey become simplified um and you as the passenger become in in control um to try and then change that to to the commercial side you’ve got your own preferences um as an individual traveler and your your preferences might be different when you’re traveling with your family but you can Define and you can set your profile you you can set what you want so there’s opportunities for now moving from a from the airline app into an airport app to say right John we know you you like this type of food it’s the middle of the day we suggest you visit this restaurant because on this app you’ve driven it a five star rating it exists here that’s where we’re going to move to the data integration within your phone that you’re saying yep you can use my profile across different apps but it’s about sharing that data um and that’s the key thing that that says right put me as the passenger in in control airport suggest what’s here for me do I want food and beverage do I want entertainment um and it’s the move away from shopping to other forms of of commercial activity that that linked my personal preferences um hem is the CEO of uh ppmc pmdc the only Saudi operators managing operating Haj and omra uh passengers Haj and omra passengers are piligrims they came from different countries that most probably most of them first time they travel most of them their English is not as good as at least to get the app and go through the app and integrate doing buying things that their food or whatever Buy app or whatever so the touchless experience the the nonoptical revenues it’s different word when we talk to hisem yeah and here the point I’m trying to explain here is like yeah we we can we can think about touch we can think about pass experience for some type of passagers it’s completely different game it’s a completely different world so he has a different challenges that he’s facing how to communicate how to make sure that the the the the very basic Services of the airport exist around for example how to prepare the praying area because this these piligrims they they arrive for specific objective uh for specific ideas buying things non itical revenue for hisam and ppmc people are different game different challenge different different Dynamic uh than uh going to Dubai or going to uh I think it’s important to understand or to you know to to put some nuances some level of understanding when you talk about Nal revenue itical revenue you know touchless that’s the point is right yeah and uh if I may add as well I mean you’re totally right uh F about personalizing the experience so the more we understand the different personas of the passengers that we are um having or handling at the airports it will be easier for us to address or even adapt this experience so in terms of ha Andra I would suggest that the the passengers would be interested in a religious experience so they might be interested also in listening to Quran verses or seeing some augmented reality storytelling about prophets and and so on or even just imagining how the uh cabba and the roaming would be around it so we could also I mean integrate these digital experiences and offer the the passengers um such a new experience based on their personas and their needs yeah but I think also link to to the Lang the language challenge is is significant um you know most airports two languages is is what you’ll see on the wayfinding at most the personalization when you have your own your own device in in that situation is providing it in your language in in in your dialogue that you will understand um and again in that big unknown environment of of of an airport where do I get to what do I need to do you you can personalize that that experience very much by by knowing the passenger profile and that includes a a language restriction I think uh removing anxiety for people is is a good business model uh people will pay to be less stressed to have certainty over how long it will take to get through the airport um and I haven’t really aside from s of the VIP type Services which are fantastic but out of the price range for the common traveler uh I would love to see a product where I’m guaranteed a certain time to get through the airport and to my G for an extra additional payment I think that would be quite an interesting and and popular option I think this is a great discussion but the team is telling me that the time is up so thank you very much for the participation thank you very much to the audience for all the question I thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music] oh [Music] [Applause] [Music] I [Music] [Applause] [Music] a [Music] I [Music] all [Music] a [Music] for [Music] [Applause] [Music] I [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] a [Music] oh [Music] are we ready to go great great to see that the room is filling up after lunch we were wanted to Promise free ice cream or something that more people are coming but um the topic seems to be interesting enough to pull you in so happy to have all of you here in our cargo and Logistics panel and um we’re going to talk the next hour about key trends what is needed to attract or grow the the cargo attract business and grow the cargo side here in the Kingdom by bringing in international experiences from U my Este panelist which will introduce themselves in a in a second just just quickly to introduce the topic Saudi is very ambition ambitious when it comes to air cargo the objective is to the sound can be may not even louder okay hey just just let me know if you can’t understand me then I’ll adjust um as I said Saudi ambitious uh the country the kingdom wants to reach 4.5 million ton of Air Cargo by 2030 that’s a factor five increase from where we stand today and um gaka is really leading the charge there um by pushing investments into infrastructure helping Investments and uh development of of fleets but also working on the regulatory side and we’re going to touch all these topics topics in a bit but let me let me tell you what we trying to do so first of all we really want to to pinpoint the growth levers for KSA cargo Air Cargo in the session we want to give you provide you with success stories from uh other markets um and the Lessons Learned for for the Kingdom from then we want to understand the needs of the the logistics players who need to come here to help facilitate um the growth in in this business and then we would like to also get get your questions um if we still have time in the end to answer specific specific points of which are of interest of you so let me without any without further ado quickly introduce my three panelists we have uh Glen to my left who is the director general of tiaka the uh Air Cargo Association we have Carlos tner who is representing the um big Express players um as director general of the global Express Association and we have to toon refers um from um the airport as one of uh a key infrastructure player in the business but let me hand over to to the panelists to say a bit more about themselves but also the organizations they represent great should I kick off thank you philli um good afternoon everybody I I’d like to actually first of all just congratulate the organizers for this event for putting cargo squarely on the agenda we had the opportunity yesterday in the plenary to talk about the role that cargo plays and over the last few years of course most people will be very familiar with how the Air Cargo industry supported the global community Through The covid Crisis um but but cargo isn’t just for covid it’s also not just for humanitarian relief efforts which it also performs as a first responder a cargo is really the heart of it is there to support the global economy and uh one of the other figures that we presented yesterday was to say that the Air Cargo industry generates about 8 to 10 times more value for the global economy than the total value of Tourism globally and this is a number that we should not really lose sight of because Air Cargo you hide us at the airport we have to go through the back door you’re embarrassed about the boxes so we don’t get to go through the front door um people often say ah you fly below the seats we have our wonderful first class cabins you do but we also have our wonderful first class cabins you know if you think of the the Arabian stallions that fly as first class passengers on a plane they fly first class which is more first class than the passenger first class they have attendance on board with them they have 24-hour care in the airport in the plane and I mention these as a couple of anecdotes to really again reinforce the the role of Air Cargo plays so a little bit about me and tiaka um I’ve been in the industry now for 41 years I know what you’re thinking I’m far too young um but trust me it is 41 years and tiaka which is the International Air Cargo Association is a horizontal trade Association so we represent Airlines airports Freight forwarders trucking companies manufacturers technology companies shippers anybody that’s involved in Air Cargo we would welcome in because as as the voice of the horizontal aspect of the so of the industry we want to make sure that we can collect everybody his views so really as an association we’re there to represent the the industry voice as loudly as we can thank you thank you thank you Philip good afternoon everyone um I can only Echo the words of my very eloquent friend Mr Hughes uh thank you to the organizers for putting cargo on the agenda I represent the global Express Association that’s uh an association of DHL FedEx and UPS the three be leading Global express delivery carriers it’s a very specific business model in the Air Cargo industry it’s Intermodal door too ground to air to ground that’s what we we called integrators uh and we also do Customs clearance for our customers the way I like to describe the industry is a conveyor belt it’s a global conveyor belt particularly fast particularly secure which underpins Global Supply chains and yes e-commerce indeed but think of just in time production Electronics high value added items that rely on time definite delivery um that’s that’s our business over to you thank you good afternoon everybody and I’m really glad uh that you are joining this uh this panel also thanks to the organizers uh for inviting me so apparently I am bring in the airport perspective here um some words about me uh I’m the vice president commercial of Le airport so it’s pronounced Le for those uh who are not aware about that so usually we refer to our yata three-letter code LG that is usually where we are known um I’m with Le now since two years as you can hear from my accent I am German so I’m the German in uh in uh in Belgium um speaking about Le airport for those those who do not know uh much about it uh we are located right in the middle between Amsterdam Frankfurt and and Paris so that what we call always the Golden Triangle and obviously that location has something to do with our success in in Air Cargo Le is a relatively uh new airport it was actually founded in 1996 before it was a military site and since then uh the airport yeah is a is a very strange animal in the European airport landscape because we are focusing in Air Cargo only um yes we have passengers uh 170,000 per year so uh we have two daily passenger flights uh so I always say I can handshake with all my passengers uh very familiar airport so we are really focusing on the development of Air Cargo we see the value of Air Cargo and that’s of course uh why we are here and also to discuss um to give you some numbers last year we did around 1 million tons of Air Cargo uh that makes us a top five European cargo Hub uh we have currently around uh 50 cargo airlines operating regular which means on a sced base or on a chartered base wire wi Lees on top of that that uh we have an ecosystem of around 44 Waters and logistics companies with a physical Presence at and around leport um most probably you also aware uh we are in Europe the airport with the most freighter movements uh and on top of that uh we are the biggest airport in Europe when it comes to e-commerce development and I gladly share a little bit of more insight and best practice in the course of this session thank you to um as you see we more or less represent the entire ecosystem of uh the Air Cargo value chain um with the infrastructure the logistics player perspective and then then you you take the rest than even even though you see a very International Panel here I would like to start with a question focused on on the Kingdom on KSA when we were just uh chatting before before we went into this room we were asked the questions by a colleague of mine do you think the 4.5 million is a realistic Target for the kingdom and you had your points of views and maybe instead of just saying a yes or no let let’s let’s discuss quickly what is needed to get there in this short time frame and what could be the hurdles we need to jump over and maybe you look like you want want to start so I start with Carlos with me but I’ll bring a very a very specific perspective which is that of the integrator and we’ve seen that in other parts of the world um and we’ll talk about this later but I would say in a provocative way it’s not just about Air transport it’s about a whole range of policies starting with trade because you know after all air Air Cargo is a function of international trade openness and then a number of policies that spanned beyond the pure realm of Air Services agreements in our case as integrators uh for us to be able to provide the full range of an express delivery service we need openness in a number of areas that are traditionally regulated by trade agreements particularly in the service area so let’s start with the pickup point you know there might be a UPS or a FedEx drop off point that’s a small office sometimes uh may be hosted in in a small business that’s distribution it’s a service distribution services need to be open then ground transport local ground transport open to foreign investment and also cross border in some cases it makes more sense to truck across the border than to fly AC across the border but is it possible brokerage uh one of our members is the biggest customs broker in the world do we have access to those licenses everywhere not everywhere so what else can I think of warehousing for instance during the pandemic there was all this discussion about the lack of temperature controlled facilities around the world well those are very specialized warehouses so it turns out that in many countries it was not possible to invest in warehousing services so little by little we’ve come up to the conclusion that for express delivery and Logistics generally I mean that of course is good for our business model but it’s good for Logistics generally you need to open up all these Services as a bundle not this one or that one all of them as a bundle and in fact we’re seeing that in some regions that message is getting through asan for instance uh the trade ministers uh couple of years ago adopted um a standard definition of what they call Logistics related Services which encompasses all that list and yes when those things happen um we see that you know openness to trade Logistics being facilitated that attracts for investment that makes a place attractive for for Transit uh for manufacturing so it’s all it’s all linked last but not least and I’m sure the question will come up later so I’ll save my powder for later trade facilitation that means the role of the Border agencies in making sure that the B is not a friction spot it’s not a bottleneck but it’s uh a structured in such a way that legitimate trade is allowed to flow as quickly as on impeded possible more details on that later so that would be my recipe you want to add on that or should we move on oh no no I’d like to add I think that’s and I I’d like to really expand upon the last word that Carlos mentioned there which is recipe um anybody in here is a baker they will know that in order to bake the best cake you’ve got to have the right ingredients and a recipe to follow and there’s no difference with a cargo the volumes won’t just materialize you have to make sure sure that all of the ingredients are in place and for me it starts at the very highest level which is the willingness and vision of a government clearly tick that box you have it here second thing is you have to mobilize the country and all those in the ecosystem galvanized to say we want to support and be part of that Vision take the box you have it here then you need to come down and say okay how do we get the volumes Carlos was absolutely touched upon the P the fact that trade trade is one of the key aspects which is trade in terms of An Origin Point excellent Vision 2030 establishes a number of key manufacturing sectors that will create cargo that needs to move if you look at those verticals they are high value verticals Aerospace and Aviation Pharmaceuticals high-tech Electronics they don’t move by Maritime they move tend to move by Air Cargo so take that box you then need to say right what about a destination great you have 30 million affluent mostly young looking at this audience all of you are young young gentlemen in the front row here as well this is excellent because this means that you are going to be growing consumers which means e-commerce which both of my colleagues have touched upon this is going to be an excellent high demand e-commerce destination now we’re getting the ingredients right but then that’s that’s still only part of the way because now you need connectivity you’ve got to be able to connect the world to the rest of the world which means Transit so you’re going to need to have origin and destination cargo through trade you’re also going to need to have an established Transit Hub and if you gain I’m sure that tolston will talk about so I’m not going to touch upon this some of the the quality aspects and programs that they’ve put in place in Li really show how that model can work as well we’re still not finished because now you have some of the ingredients but ah we need capacity so that means we need to have the bellies of Passenger aircraft but you also need need to have those beautiful Freighters again if you just look at the aircraft orders you look at the planes that are already here and that will be coming here in the next five plus years you can tick that box to say that capacity is here as well Carlos far more eloquently than I talked about the infrastructure the regulatory regime as well you need to have an effective Customs procedures in place to make sure the cargo can flow you need to have facilities you need to also consider I’m told I’ve not been here in July and August but somebody said it gets a little warm in July and August here I don’t know what’s that like 25 30° air temperature something like that um so a little warm so if you’re going to be moving those high value Pharmaceuticals come through that actually need to be stored at plus two to Plus 8 or in other cases more extreme temperature ranges you’ve got to have the infrastructure and the facilities to keep those products in their Optimum condition and and again if I just like to say a little bit about the far Pharmaceuticals because a lot of things that we move are just boxes but when it comes to Pharmaceuticals we’re not moving boxes we’re moving lives we’re moving these products which will actually save somebody’s life their life-saving treatment programs which we’re looking at in terms of custodial care so the kingdom is going to play an incredibly important role in connecting for example India the world’s largest manufacturer vaccines and other value products for example through to Europe through to Africa through to North America so you’ve got the capacity you need to have the regulatory regimes in place then the other aspect which we talked about yesterday which is those beautiful assets we said the freighter but freighter move cargo unidirectionally one way so then you need to have the regulatory regimes in place both here and with partnering countries around the world where the freighter that have moved cargo to their destination can effectively come back but not empty by moving other products around a network so that you can actually optimize those particular freighter and I don’t mean flipping when I say my next thing but if you’re building a passenger Network you send them some beautiful pictures of the Red Sea or send them a picture of Mickey Mouse and that automatically generates Demand air cargo is a much more intricate recipe because again we’re dealing with a much more broad commodity based but honestly to your original question can it be achieved here I seen no reason why it can’t be achieved here because the ingredients are actually in place and there is a recipe great thank you you touched or you elaborated a lot on increasing volumes by by increasing trade but part of the the Saudi logistic subvision and that’s not not a secret is also to stop the leakage to other very successful Logistics hubs in the region tson you are in a competitive environment I would say in in Europe and you managed to become one of the leading hubs maybe you can can draw some some uh parallels from from what you’re seeing from a competitive standpoint um to what this the kingdom is seeing now to get to the 4.5 yep I gladly do that um and and again I I see a lot of similarities what is happening here and Le obviously Le on a much much smaller scale uh but also there um the success of leod is from the very beginning they had a Clear Vision on Air Cargo so and they put also the ingredients uh I just have a picture of mine that somebody is cooking there but at the end to have a to have this one you really need to have these ingredients you need to have a clear vision and you are right maybe for those who do not know um in a radio of 500 km around le as airport we have at least 10 other airports which call them self cargo friendly airport so that really gives you also a little bit of an impression about our competitiveness we have there I mean just to mention some airports you have Frankfurt you have Amsterdam you have Paris even London uh cologne uh and even Brussels not to forget the second smaller Belgium airport and um from the very beginning again a major vision and based on that Vision uh obviously a clear master plan to execute that um and some of those uh let’s say ingredients and success factors caros and Glen already mentioned so I might maybe repeat them but number one obviously capacity capacity is really a key thing and what is even more important a proactive development of capacity so don’t wait too long that’s unfortunately something that we saw in during the pandemic that we are running then really in a capacity problem when when about Warehouse capacity uh about logistics facilities and all that kind of stuff so leer airport since ever is proactively developing Warehouse capacities it is obviously the first line Warehouse capacity so the warehouses which are directly connected to the ramp what what is even more important is to have the second line development or even the third line development so these are the logistics parks around the airport obviously we are focusing on the development of cargo airlines but what is equally important of course is to support the development of the activities of the forwarders and the logistics companies so you really need to create the needed infrastructure for that and via the infrastructure you are creating an ecosystem and that’s also quite uh core especially for the airport and I know that my colleagues here are already working working on that to create an ecosystem a business friendly environment for all the actors in the Air Cargo Logistics industry on top of that and that is uh not only since uh since Co is the digital development I mean unfortunately our industry still is a little bit oldfashioned you still and and Glenn I know can give you much much more about that you still see a lot of papers physical work and these kind of things so also there to speed up the process to add really a value to the supply chain is you need to develop digital tools Customs Tool uh live tracking systems for Air Cargo so this is also something we are doing now in Le the airport together with it stakeholders is creating a digital system which is connected with the handling system of the airline with the airline systems and also with the custom systems so you have the full visibilities of the entire Goods flows while leport obviously that’s not only happening right now in uh in uh it is also happening at some other places um so this is core to bring really uh added value we were already speaking about also the needed infrastructure for certain commodities like farmer like perishables uh as Glenn said this is really essential uh to to bring added value uh and that is something that we are definitely doing uh since uh since ever um maybe just one last thing and then we go further what is also quite important and that’s a success factor of Le is we are quite liberal when it comes to giving traffic rights I mean Belgium is a relatively small country um and I can say that from a German perspective uh and Belgium is a trading Union since ever and there we are quite liberal in in granting traffic rights uh to a foreign carriers obviously we always need to have a good balance between the rights for the Belgium carriers but also for the National Carriers a good example is Saudi aago uh Saudi aago is one of our strategic Airline Partners there they are operating up to 10 Freights per week uh between the the king and of Saudi Arabia and Lees but even further while Le they are flying to the US so while that of course we are also giving more freighter capacity access from Saudi Arabia to the European market but further Beyond so that’s for sure something also something where should be a strong focus on giving the needed regulatory framework for these kind of developments thank you TOS maybe GL do you want to add even more color with some examples from other markets or other markets are doing it to attract these or and grow these Air Cargo volumes if I could but can I also just come back CU you use the word leakage as well within the vision and you know my suggestion would be not to focus on leakage because I see leakage as a distraction if the way that the vision has been articulated here is executed it will attract and grow the volumes if you actually allow yourself to say well I want to see what he’s got over there and I want to get some of that you’re actually now responding to circumstances and situations beyond your control and that actually I think will take people’s eyes off the vision that has actually been created bearing in mind yesterday as we said Air Cargo transports 1% of international trade by volume if that was to grow by 1.2% and just by means of comparison and forgive me for saying this if there’s anybody from the maritime industry in the room 0.2% is about the value of the number of containers that fall off ships every year so if they didn’t fall off ships but they actually flew on planes that would grow this industry by 20% that would take up every spare bit of capacity that exists to so to me the articulation of the VIS vision and the execution of that vision is infinitely more valuable than trying to run after that little bit of leakage perceived that we should have had that no create what you’re going to create here the volumes will grow infinitely to a greater percentage coming back to to your your question sorry for for diverting slightly there I would say one of the closest scenarios to what’s being articulated here is what’s happened in India over the last few years and in India I can articulate what they’ve actually achieved in really three sentences starts with make in India or Made in India number two $5 trillion economy number three 10 million tons of Air Cargo annually by 2030 they’re about 3.3 million tons today so they’re going to have to go 3% over the next five six years nobody questions it it’s not about questioning the journey it’s again what you’ve got here there’s a vision that’s articulating started with you know Modi down it’s about the manufacturing Comm Community saying we’ve heard Carlos saying that we need trade facilitation agreements in we need to attract foreign direct investment we need to have as ton was saying we need to have the infrastructure in place they’re building I don’t know how many new airports they’re building I don’t know how many new facilities they’re building they’re building the cool chain facilities for example they’re putting all the ingredients in place and everybody is mobilized working towards that aim we saw foxcom now manufactures the iPhone 15 um or percentage of them in India I don’t know how many of Carlos’s members planes were used to fly them around the world um but that’s one success story that generated roughly 250,000 jobs just that one product because of the ancillary infrastructure and Supply Chain Services to support that one item of production their Aerospace sector is growing hugely their Automotive sector is growing hugely now they have 1.3 billion population average age very young average number of phones I don’t know how they managed to use three phones at the same time but I’ve literally seen people using three I mean they using the thumb and the little finger to type at the same time it’s phenomenal to watch it happening but if you look at e-commerce as well in those sectors so it’s the vision that’s being articulated here it’s not a wild guess ah let’s hope this works it’s actually a tried and tested measure and also if we look back over the last 30 or 40 years if you look at what happen in Singapore same sort of thing they articulate a vision they want to have a a An Origin destination production manufacturing and high Quality Logistics Vietnam is going through that same process now Malaysia’s gone through that before that we had South Korea we had Japan you know these are economies that have really grown as a result of saying that Logistics needs to be the heart of everything if we produce the highest quality product but can’t get it out it’s no good if we produce the highest quality product and we can get it out but it can only go out on a ship also it’s great for some products but if you want to grow for example flowers maybe this is not a good growing conditions for flowers but let’s take where I was last week um Ethiopia and and Kenya you know in the 3 weeks prior to Mother’s Day and sorry to repeat what I said yesterday but 90 countries celebrated Mother’s Day last weekend weekend ago 400 million homes around this planet celebrated with flowers that came BAS basically from four countries they came from Ecuador colia Nigeria I Ethiopia and Kenya those flowers not only created 400 million homes of of happiness it also used wonderful facilities at airports it used wonderful aircraft but most importantly it created livelihoods for 20 million people and this is actually just in Africa in in Kenya and Ethiopia 20 million livelihoods were able to put food on their table send their children to school because of these products this is the air cargo story and so again I just commend and congratulate what the vision Vision has started here but I my recommendation is people not to question whether or not they can get to 5 million tons questioning the end result five six years away doesn’t help also not to be diverted from your cause by focusing on leakage it’s it’s the eye on the Finish Line Usain Bolt if anybody ever remembers Usain Bolt the great Runner he had the same capability as me I can run I take a little bit longer to get 100 m but if you notice when he runs the 100 m he never looks sideways until he crosses the finish line to see how far in advance he was of everybody else while he’s running the race he’s purely focused forward that’s what I think the kingdom needs to do just focus forward on that Finish Line these would have been amazing closing words but sorry sorry try not to move anymore so maybe we we switch gears a bit and uh look at a different perspective and the perspective of the logistics players and especially uh the members you represent um what are they what do they sorry um can you maybe I think it works now it it I’m trying trying to do okay don’t move what what would what do they need in terms of infrastructure but also in terms of Regulation to really grow their business in the region in the Kingdom well it’s what I mentioned at the beginning know it’s the combination of all these Services openness in the market for all these services and then really topof the range trade facilitation um like I said the Border can be a friction point or an enabler and luckily as we were mentioning yesterday we have now International standards for that in in the trade facilitation agreement of the World Trade Organization and it recommends a series of call it key performance indicators or or or best standards to bring up the common denominator and it’s a number of things that that we value tremendously I mean for us to be present in 220 countries and territories uh and carry 14 million shipments we don’t count things in tons in in in our industry we call it in shipments small Parcels of which you know the three carry 40 million of those every day and they have to move really really fast so uh to your point on digitalization express delivery was an early adopter of digital information that travels along with or actually earlier than the physical movement of parcels can border authori and Customs is the lead agency but in some countries we have to deal with another 50 uh border agencies can they receive that electronic information before the goods arrive physically can they then run the risk analysis highly automated to determine okay of the sometimes hundreds of thousands of of small Parcels that are coming in which ones might present a risk which ones do I want to inspect which ones can I clear to go right away do I separate the release from all the clearance of documents and and and payments that need to happen at the border is very importantly is there a single window at the border where any carrier can send the advanced information into one point it gets distributed to everyone all the agencies that need to look at those shipments and then they send one single answer back saying okay the Food and Drug Administration wants to see your shipment and then in our case of course because every single shipment is barcoded we can separate that from the flow and send it to to the authority but the rest can go through um importantly in terms of facilities and and warehouses yes airide uh our own warehouse but then the authorities have to be inside the building in that’s the best practice you know where you have customs and other authorities inside the building we grant them space and they tell okay I want to see this that and that we separate that from the flow automatically they do what they need to do the rest can go very very quickly so these are policies enshrined in this treaty we would like to see countries around the world getting to that level and then there’s a Step Beyond to your vision which is at some point full digitalization we can send information that we have digitally can the author ities receive it not everywhere can they do the necessary things with that information not everywhere but more importantly are we talking just about scan copies of documents today yes but increasingly we are moving into pure data so it’s not thinking okay which documents do I need today let’s do a digital version of that it’s rather a rethink of the whole process which data do I need to see to make sure that the input process meets all my interests no unsafe products get in nothing illicit gets through but those that are legitimate can be cleared very very quickly and that is going to be increasingly just a pure data exchange so that’s beyond the trade facilitation agreement but the trade facilitation agreement is the first step and in that second area um there are many initiatives going around for you know digitalizing this multimodal environment uh bringing in more players um that previous might not have been regulated into the picture that’s very important with e-commerce for instance and um standardizing it in a way that is interoperable um I would recommend people to look at the initiative that the international Chamber of Commerce has undertaken in a so-call digital Standards Initiative which they’re they’re looking at all the documents and indeed beyond that the information that needs to be exchanged at which stage of digitalization is it how interoperable is it and just take it in that direction you mentioned multim multimodal ones yeah how important is that for your members but also for multimodal is our business model so we pick it up we truck it to a Gateway we put it on a plane usually Transit at a hop sometimes too and then the reverse process happens it goes to a Gateway where it’s all the clearance is done with customs and the other agencies it’s put into a b and then you see the delivery uh agent handing you that shipment at your doorstep so being able to you know put all those docks in a row is a function of infrastructure and policy in in in many respects so it’s very important of course flying to torsten’s point is a huge part of it our members combined between owned and Leed operate 1550 six I think it was uh aircraft the three of them so very significant fleets to span the world uh that requires a very liberal environment the more liberal environment the more flexibility cargo operators of the traditional sort or Express get uh um cargo does not only fly B way but it changes all the time some of it is seasonal some of it you know new production centers Sprout up you want to put the capacity where it’s needed at its Optimum small plane big plane several planes a day um so that kind of liberal approach is is extremely important for Air Cargo generally particularly for Express but for everyone we touched upon or the express players they also transport a lot of e-commerce and and to you also touched upon e-commerce and the importance which is which is playing already in in the trade L but maybe we can can dig deeper a bit into this specific uh industry and you can um sorry may can have you yeah perfect now I can hear you perfect um maybe you can can can talk a bit of the specific requirements also in the global trade Lanes we are seeing of the e-commerce players to me happy for you to start yeah um I mean again of course uh being the the e-commerce Hub of Europe obviously we we did a lot of deep deep dive in that um I think obviously we already touched uh very important elements which is the digital site and by the way I was uh glad to learn uh or I was glad that you mentioned also the multimodal approach maybe just a small s side step that’s also what we see now coming from e-commerce it started all with Air Cargo at leaport but what we have right now right next to our airport there is a rail operator and uh this rail operator is receiving 10 times per week e e-commerce trains so um we are also seeing that as an opportunity so part of our strategy is of course to transform ourself from a Pure Air Cargo infrastructure for e-commerce and for uh for Air Cargo to a multimodal Marketplace and infrastructure so this is something we are actively developing and this is also demanded by the major players like uh Alibaba CH Amazon not even speaking about timu and Shen the New Kids on the blog um so there we are actively working also with Customs as you said this is really quite important really to have the support there and create a digital environment but we also have a customs area around the airport uh about 5 km and there you have a free flow of goods so that also means that all the warehouses and the infrastructure can be not only used for Air Cargo volumes also for Road volumes for train volumes and by coincident leash is also the third biggest Inland uh port in uh in Europe so there obviously uh there is a strong demand uh of the uh strategic players in the eCommerce industry to support that um also what we see is that more of these players are also Keen in to enter strategic Partnerships I mean for them obviously in their Vision it is quite important also that they have the clear feeling from the partners that they have a vision that they are creating capacities that they are creating a momentum that they are willing really to go in long-term Partnerships I think this is also something you see now in the e-commerce Market which was especially the first couple of years it was a quite a short uh notice Market I mean it was popping up it was going down and up so you see now also the e-commerce Market obviously it is it is growing just maybe to give you a number last years we handled 400 billion e-commerce shipments Wes also to give you a certain number I don’t know who is counting the number but uh anyway it’s a lot so um also there you see really the e-commerce industry is looking really nice for a join strategic development also when it comes to things which might be not come in five or 10 years so that is also something that we see now that this industry definitely is changing to be more strategic and now I forgot your question I I think you answered the question what are the requirements of the e-commerce players quite well so thank you for that can can I just something add something about e-commerce here please do so if we were having this session six or seven years ago it probably wouldn’t even come up as a topic to discuss then of course during Co when people were shuted at home I just looked at my daughter she was itching she needs her retail therapy she couldn’t get it so she went online millions and billions of her colleagues also went online and it accelerated the way that as the global community that we shifted our consumer activity and our Behavior dramatically by about 5 years acceleration over the course of about 12 months today about 20 to 25% of the total Global air cargo volume is related to e-commerce coming out of China Hong Kong in fact if you look at the the greater Bay Area there it’s about 75 to 80% of all air cargo volume is e-commerce related you’ve got and as uh tolston was saying the New Kids on the Block teu teu was established I believe about September 22 it launched in the US by June of 23 it was doing a billion dollars worth of sales every month all of it coming by air last year they spent $2 billion on Google ads to remind us all that we need to download the app and actually start shopping online and you get a free voucher for the first purchase blah blah blah and people get hooked Sheen came along also new kid on the Block just the last few years today its sales are greater online than indexs um Nike and I believe there’s a third one put together so it’s great Sales Online than numbers two and three all of it goes via air and when you look at that model index has 7,600 retail outlets around the world each retail outlet employs roughly 20 to 25 people they have to ship in stock to be able to sell to the customer what the customer needs if you Sheen you say I look at everything that’s wrong with that model and I remove it so they only ship what’s been purchased they only manufacture what they can actually sell they use their their intelligence and data analytics to a much greater degree supply chain costs for them are not a cost they’re actually a value Creator which is interesting because a lot of people look at oh I have to send this by air it costs me money for them it’s not they love spending the money because it creates the value of speed and I think over the next 3 to 5 years the expectation is that 20 25% of volumes is going to go to 30 perhaps even 30 5% of volumes Li is going to be smiling Carlos’s members are going to be smiling I’m going to have no hair left because my daughter’s going to account for most of that increase she hates it when I say this and she said dad but people probably think I spend all day long and I said I have to do the returns I know when I come and visit her I know what she’s buying because I know what I have to take back to the post office and she said yeah but that’s just to grow the volumes of return so she said I’m doing you a favor um so as an area of expansion it’s huge but the reason why I think we need to focus on that again link it to the the vision that you’ve got here is all the other products that the world needs to move around the Pharmaceuticals the perishables the fresh they need capacity so these e-commerce players are coming in and they’re locking in huge volumes of capacity but we need to make sure that the growth can still be there for those other verticals and I think that’s where it’s crucial that we need to get that awareness out there so people can plan Fleet strategies again Kingdom congratulations you’re actually creating a great Fleet strategy other parts of the world are being more reactive um and that’s where we could see some trouble going forward thank you for that can I bring quickly a slightly supplementary perspective here Glenn has talked about huge players indeed e-commerce is associated with a number of household names now even though the scene is changing constantly but what we like in Express about e-commerce is the ability it gives micro small and medium-sized Enterprises their ability to trade worldwide I mean I I remember one of our members had an ad showing a family or four in a Caribbean Island cooking a really powerful hot pepper sauce and thanks to a very simple website they and international Logistics they managed to ship that worldwide usually they would have sold that locally now they had a worldwide customer base um it’s a factor of development that is so important in particularly in in developing countries uh and I think that needs to be facilitated now the problem is some of these companies lack the sophistication to understand some of the trade rules that were built around container ships Big volumes they might sell one bottle of hot sauce or four not a full container how can we make it very very easy for them to comply because they do want to comply they want to pay their taxes and duties if necessary they want to make sure that they don’t you know uh violate any regulations at destination they want to tap those markets but they’re very small players and that aspect of e-commerce is something that we need to keep in mind all the time added to the question I wanted to to make one one final last turn and especially the fast e-commerce models are often criticized due to their non-sustainable way way of working and the entire industry is under the magnifying glass for that so maybe one last last round on what is the industry doing in terms of sustainability and what also should should be implemented in the regulations Etc in the Kingdom to be up the Forefront in that can I kick this one first please I think that’s a brilliant question um first of all if you were to Canvas people of the word sustainability what does it mean you’ll probably get a different answer from everybody that you asked the question to some people will focus purely on the environmental aspect it’s about the environmental impact that you have on a society others will say no it’s about packaging that you use on things that you purchase and about recycling Etc we as a trade Association focus on the United Nations definition of the UN sustainable development goals for us a sustainable world and focusing on Air Cargo means that we have a role to play first of all yes we have to red our environmental impact but B we have to increase the impact that we can have for Global society and third we have to be prosperous because a prosperous industry and prosperous manufacturers will be able to invest back in for a better tomorrow so we call it the PPP which is looking at people planet and prosperity first of all we have to say from the environmental impact side of things the Air Cargo industry has done a tremendous amount and I’m going to let these guys talk about it but from electrification of vehicles from solar panels in a lot of cargo facilities single-use plastic this industry used to be a horrendous user of single-use plastic which used to end up in landfill if you go to many facilities around the world now you’ve got biodegradable Plastics you’ve got um seaweed based Plastics which is phenomenal it’s actually a a very encouraging project there that is actually taking seaweed which grows or absorb 60% more carbon than landbased materials tend to seaweed Farms tend to be set up in developing nations around the world so it’s actually ticking so many boxes and the process to turn them into biodegradable and soluble Plastics are also huge so a lot of work has been done to look at the environmental side as Carlos has mentioned I think that’s a lovely story about manufacturing the the the Chili Peppers or the hot sauces Etc is Air Cargo can personally take credit for actually probably hundreds of millions of livelihood around the world I’ve talk about the farmers in in Africa probably a little bit too often but I think it’s wonderful that this industry enables that so I think we have to prepare ourselves to respond to the environmental challenges which we’re challenging ourselves as an industry this industry is investing a lot in aircraft a lot of re um a lot of conversion aircraft are also um a wonderful way of recycling you know if you look at these beautiful Boeing passenger planes out there what would we the see after 18 years of a passenger life cycle that they get thrown away all the carbon that’s gone into their production no we love to see them go for repurposing um and that they fly into a cloud as a passenger plane and they come out of the cloud as a cargo aircraft and they have another 10 to 15 years worth of Life moving wonderful cargo around the world so the industry needs to do a is doing a lot but of course we need to do a lot more I’m not going to talk about sustainable aviation fuel cuz I know that’s been talked about an awful lot but as an industry we do need to recognize our our CO2 impact as well I think Aviation is 2.5% of total emissions Air Cargo dedicated is 0.6% of total emissions small but we would like to obviously reduce that as other uh things go forward yes I I fully agree I mean the the environmental issue is something that is very present in the business model and I would say that we’re trying everything we can to reduce it from making sure that a substantial part of the fleet is electrified gradually you will see more and more electric vans more and more electric bikes electric all sorts of electric vehicles we’re testing electric airplanes for shorter destinations uh carbon neutral buildings making sure that the supply chain can be as decarbon ified as possible but then again with with to glans point sustainability is there are all sides to sustainability development is a big part of that I promised you in the beginning that we would take questions we have a little less time than I thought we would have but happy to take one or two questions hello guys I wonder uh as you mentioned proposed you know that expansion of uh traffic of Air Cargo will increase in the coming years I wonder for the next 20 years would the expansion of the fleet for air Caro will tell you with the number of uh tons you know you carry as we see that uh e-commerce is picking up and other stuff you know also picking up in the number of car are they going to go aside or we going to see again uh some problems like Supply chains delays and these uh some sort of problems for the next next 20 years that can can I have the first step that’s a great question if you look at my head my hair was left the minute I start saying I know the answer to that question then the hair says no you have no idea to the answer to that question the one thing that’s that we all learn about the air cargo industry is we don’t know what next week is going to bring to us nobody for thought for example 2023 October 2023 we were saying Oh What A disappointing year oh my God how long is this going to suffer next thing we know the Red Sea situation very sad situation it was but now it meant that the maritime ships that are sailing from Asia to Europe are going to take 14 extra days manufacturers can’t take that 14 yday so they they start calling up Carlos’s members they call up Le saying I need capacity now all of a sudden we’ve got actually a shortage of capacity almost overnight so rates have gone up Etc now we actually then think that the long-term trends of e-commerce so we look at the the trends the trends we know are for increase in perishables increase in e-commerce increase in consumer activity high-tech Electronics diversification of Supply chains China currently accounts for 29% of Global Production and Global manufacturing the G7 country said we need to diversify we cannot be holding upon to One Nation for that degree of production so southeast Asia is taking up a much larger sh stake of of uh foreign direct investment going forward which means for Supply Chains It’s going to be much more Diversified great more opportunities for us Boeing and Airbus predict there’s about a 4 3.8 to 4.2% projected growth over the next 20 years we as tiaka don’t see any reason to deviate from that we think that there will be ups and downs like a roller coaster but that does seem like a very fair long-term Trend One Challenge we do have there’s a number of aircraft that are actually getting to that age where they need to be retired and there are a number of supply chain shortages with regards to getting new aircraft off the production line so I think going forward this is where the the capacity challenge which we may see in Q4 this year actually start to bite which is why conversion programs are so important great question second one’s coming thank you good afternoon group uh I agree with your recipe both that in this country we are enjoying good time I think our vision is not anymore Vision it’s already execution we have the program we have the road map in the right way especially in the Air Cargo and Logistics we were way behind we used to be a rigid country luckily now the process and the ease of doing business is already happening and we are uh as investors and developer we are enjoying that in my opinion I think still we are lacking two things service providers Global service provider to have more presence to handle these potential volumes and quality infrastructure we uh in our group seriously considering developing Air Cargo Hub in Saudi Arabia keep in mind Saudi Arabia we are not only 30 million we are also having a potential 30 million Muslim ha and omra passengers we already having 80 million as of today and by 2030 we’ll have another 30 million above on top of that more important we are ideally located as a regional Hub we can connect volumes from Kenya Ethiopia and other African Market to European market and the other way to Asia also we can be an and we are we did our own studies and we found that mixing mode of Transport between C until Saudi Arabia then by air to Europe it will make a lot of sense and it will reduce a lot of time and volume but H how those global player like Le airport as a infrastructure Express as a service provider how can we integrate and tab to This Global Knowledge and make it visible the the the head the the sound system is not good here can I just Philip did you get the question at the end it’s saying how can the infrastructure how can you develop the infrastructure he took it away too quickly I think in Saudi Arabia we are not lacking investment we are not lacking the will we will develop the infrastructure but how can we tap to the service provider who will do the 3bl 4bl air cargo and also the airport management that’s a great question I should I take the first St and then you guys come in so didn’t quite question sorry what was the question so it’s a case of they have the infrastructure the investment for the infrastructure but once the infrastructure is there how can they attract in then the service providers the 3pl the 4pls ETC I think the one thing that’s good about this industry it’s a magnet if you have the infrastructure as the Kingdom’s Vision develops you will find many people people here that you oh I haven’t seen you before no no no no we’ve been following now we’re here now we’re ready to actually play an active role the same happened I mentioned India before the same is happening now in India India has one difference versus here they don’t have enough homegrown capacity or home capacity under a local AOC here you’ve got that is is not going to be an issue you have the investment here you have the vision here you have the willingness I think international players will come here this type of event is great for shining a spotlight on Aviation correct there will need to be and we as tiaka are also looking to see if we can actually play a role to help shine a spotlight for the logistics industry on the opportunities that exist here you will find that people will want to reach out um I think that the world and this is another part of one of the things that came about when you talk sorry I I just tell me to stop talking so stop talking okay well I won’t um the wonderful thing over the last few I’ll talk fast the last few days we SE some beautiful videos of things I did not know that about Saudi Arabia honestly you have been too silent for too long about this wonderful Kingdom about what the tourism opportunities you’ve got here and now the logistical opportunities I think you need to be proud and loud as you are proud and loud you will attract in people that say we want to partner and work with you can I add something one thing I think I think we’re going to be dragged out by our feet in a in a few minutes but just just very short very quick in our experience with with the policies are right and the infrastructure is right it will attract investment if you see the manufacturing plans that start popping up around our hubs for instance just because the logistics are there and the policies are right they will come um no doubt about that but let me add one thing an essential thing is to keep this constant dialogue between the authorities and Industry every week what’s going right what’s not going right what can we improve so that we fine tun it constantly through facilitation committees through Chambers of Commerce through bilateral meetings always constant all the time to improve it and and and you will see the results I’m sure perfect thank you to uh my three great panelists do you want to have the final word no because I’m really in fear I see uh I see the the next panel no I mean I think anyway there there are most probably more questions so I would just suggest after the session yeah we are still here and just a little advertisement we’re discussing uh cargon Logistics in Gate one there will be a discussion a panel discussion on special economic zones I have to head over hopefully you join me or join toon for quick one-on-one on uh to ask answer questions but thank you for being such a great audience uh I saw a lot of uh interested faces people nodding people uh not being on their phones typing but recording so it must have been or hope it was of value for you and again thank you uh to the panelist thank thank you for the organizers [Applause] [Music] oh [Music] oh [Music] [Applause] [Music]
