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From S-Bahns in Germany, to through-running subways in Tokyo, world-class regional rail transforms cities. In today’s video, we talk about a plan to do just that for New York.
Effective Transit Alliance report: https://www.etany.org/modernizing-new-york-commuter-rail
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Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
42 Comments
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I can't even say how transformational this would be the NY Metro Area. This is a once in a lfetime, project of the century, opporunity to transform mobility in the region. I bet a system of this calliber with high quality all day everyday electrified service could easily move millions each day.
Could a Penn-Grand Central connection use Grand Central Madison instead? Keep one level of platforms for terminating LIRR and repurpose the other level for through-running.
I cannot imagine why anyone would want to travel from Greenwich to Secaucus. Connecting the two big RR stations and all the airports by rail makes sense. the rest?
I think it'd be easiest to unify Metro-North and LIRR given that they're both run by the MTA and both use third-rail power (and even the same rolling stock in some cases). That said, there's a philosophy behind the construction of both of these systems: get people to and from Manhattan. Neither were intended to do anything else. Hopefully they change that.
I like your proposals though, I'd love to see something like this in New York (and maybe Chicago too? Metra are you listening?) lol
While the New Haven line going to Penn Sta might be worthwhile they could and should start by bringing Hudson line trains into Penn. Amtrak already uses Hudson line tracks going north to Albany and beyond but of course that could be done without any massive spending, so no pas to grease.
Where the money for fixing this come from
Bravo! I watch these kinds of channels now so it seems like a bit of a no-brainer for NYC… but I used to commute from NJ to NYC regularly and occasionally hopped on Metro-North to visit family in CT. It never occurred to me at the time that through-service would be a good idea — even when I was trekking across the city from Penn to Grand Central for one reason or another. That said, more people need to be exposed to this idea!
people (especially train people) quit with "the US should do thing because countries do it" argument,
it is annoying and ignorant.
there are a lot of differences between the US and these other countries, regions, cultures, …
there are even differences between and within states. what works for New York will not necessarily work for LA, Maine, Iowa, …
Unfortunately there’s multiple issues with this video.
Single tracking along the Port Washington branch
Low level bridges near Woodside
C3’s cannot fit into the Grand Central portal. NJ Transit Bilevels will also have the same issues clearing the proposed Penn station / Grand Central link to access sunny side.
Lack of layup and relay options
Several mode changes
New equipment already on order
One maybe a big problem would be running Long Island Railroad equipment on Metro-North tracks and visa versa. The third rail contacts shoes are not compatible. LIRR trains run their shoes on top of the third rail while Metro North in under the third rail. In addition non of the LIRR trains and most of the Metro North trains are equipped with rectifiers and pentagraphs. Therefore they are not able to run on A/C only D/C. You'd have to change the whole fleet. While nice I don't think it would be practical.
Will never happen. Too much corruption and greed here in New York . Things may change when the old timers are gone kinda like our space program. Space x came along and changed everything.
excellent video. This would be life changing for the tri state area as it definitely would lower traffic… Being raised in Yonkers, Going to planes like Newark or Connecticut was always considered a long trip and thus rarely did it… u laid this plan out perfectly
The East Side Access was a great project, but why do I feel it would have been better to connect the tracks to GCT's lower level loop tracks rather than having a separate station? It would have made through running much easier.
Sounds like plan to tax anything and everyone
I’m from Westchester and this would be transformative. Many of these trips are only attractive to make by car (taking the train to grand central then a subway trip with a transfer to Penn is really not attractive at all compared to driving) plus connection wait times. If I go somewhere in New Jersey I wouldn’t even consider the train right now but this would make me consider it
Revenue sharing….hence it not being feasible until that's squared away
Look, all of this sounds nice, but you glossed over a very big issue. You said people can take the fastest train as opposed to the most affordable train. Reality check their are a record number of people who live on Long Island that are refusing to pay for their tickets on LIRR it cost too much money right now, and now you want this only thing I see and here is the ticket price going into outer space!!🤔
Great video. I love to see our regions powers acknowledge these plans and allow the public to discuss them
As a CT resident, this would make flying out of Newark so much more tolerable. The transfer from GCT to Penn is the worst
Ok but this means that people in NJ would have direct access to Long Island…
You don't like m9s?
Ground news is cool. As an American conservative I hate how many on the right hate trains.
I recently took the Harlem line North to White Plains and the Metro North line tunnel track maintenance is so terrible. Speeds are limited due to sloppy tracks.
A project like this will really take a lot of cars off the road.
There are a few issues with this kind of setup. One of the largest being the general lack of demand for trips between suburbs as cars tend to be the more efficient method of transport, especially given that they are then required at suburban train station terminus. Furthermore, as another commenter noted, there is no ticketing unification amongst all the systems. This is not to mention the fact that PATH operates half as regional rail and half as subway style service in addition to the services provided by the New York Subway. But perhaps the biggest potential issues come from the infrastructure itself as there are varying levels of electrification across different standards in addition to numerous diesel services that would mean incredibly complex rolling stock special orders to make this dream a reality. For example, many metro north trains use 3rd rail DC power while NJ transit uses a variety of different overhead power specs in addition to some degree of third rail. Add to that, that NJ transit, metro north. and LIRR all have some degree of diesel only or partial diesel service and you end up with nightmarish Frankenstein-ed rolling stock.
Worth noting that while the physical infrastructure necessary for this is relatively minimal, the political infrastructure required would be considerable. New Jersey Transit (which runs the trains to New Jersey) and the MTA (which runs MetroNorth and LIRR) are state agencies of two different states that usually don't get along. Every step of this would be a massive fight over who gets to run which trains and how to share the revenue and the cost of construction. This is a big part of why it took so long to get started on the Hudson Tunnel project.
Doing this also eliminates the need for West Side and Sunnyside yards. The real estate value of these areas could recoup part of the costs of these plans.
The Hudson Tunnels are unable to handle NJT and Amtrak now. None of the politricsters want to invest our tax dollars for QOL improvements.
As an NJ resident on the NEC I must say that a NJT NEC combined with the Metro North New Haven line would be a huge benefit. Currently NJ residents either have to use overpriced/delayed Amtrak, transfer between Penn and GC and add an unnecessary hour, or drive and either take the gridlocked GW or the long route on the tapan-zee.
I know this could not be done quickly, but a Hoboken – WTC/Lower Manhattan – Brooklyn/Atlantic Terminal line would be a huge plus. Paired with timed transfers at both Newark, Secacus, and Jamaica would create a greater network. I know it would cost an outrageous amount but it would get so many people off the subway going from Penn Station and Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan.
This was originally proposed by the Fourth Regional Plan years ago and again as T-Rex by the Regional Plan Association 5 years ago. There's basically been talk of this for +15 years. The problem is dumpster fire MTA politics and NJTransit's lack of dedicated funding. Once you solve those two problems you need fare integration and then you need a regional authority (Port Authority?) to fix and maintain the traction compatibility issues.
It’s called Long Island rail Road
Through-running regional rail is amazing. The Frontrunner does this and honestly is what makes it seem better than some other Intermountain West services and it makes improving service in the future (like 110 mph, electrification, and complete double tracking) something that even a deeply red and car-dependent state would even consider. If it works in Utah, then it sure as heck will in New York.
Use the transregional express ideal, utilize trains between schedule to increase capacity and lessen points where is crowding occurs and without relying on so much with other transit to create pressure. This requires new links to complete the rail network, improve junctions, update and incorporate technology to handle capacity, trafficking, reliability and safety. You can use the existing hub and terminal points for direct service and short turn trains, make use of the yards and facility and get people closer to those areas in the tri state while using the new links to travel longer distance like Trenton and New Haven. It can help monitor and help maintain existing infrastructure instead of replacing them like the Hudson tunnel and the second avenue subway which is needed for improvement of the subway system
Def need a subway extension that either runs off the #4/#6 or the future Q extension that goes off 125th st in a new tunnel linking all the terminals at LaGuardia. No AirTran needed. Call Elon Musk's Boring Company.
BS proposition No one Need to Sit-down that long in a overcrowded train 🚊 for that long it important to to transit to be able to walk a take some break or use a bathroom lol
Exp: If you depart from Connecticut to Grant-central you will deal with overcrowded trains and worts going to Newark will be far more Crowded if you remain in the same train 🚆 you will likely be uncomfortable lol
The Amtrak is just fine for Now 🤷♂️
If I could take a train from New Haven to Jersey Shore I’d ride it back and forth all day just to not have to transfer anywhere.
Also need to talk about the different third rail systems
Commuter rail is unprofitable that's why no one in power talks about it. I don't think there is any commuter rail in America that turns a profit.
The way commuter rail turns a profit in other countries is that the station is built inside a shopping center/skyscraper/mall. And the rail company owns the property or is co owned with a private partner with the rail company and share profit from the tenants of the building enclosing the rail service. The commuter rail brings customers directly into the mall or forces them to walk through the mall to get to the station.
You can't produce more throughput, train capacity and passenger capacity in the existing two-block-wide Penn Station complex using any configuration other than the existing one! It must be put in good shape, contrary to assertions about the "Summer of Hell" and the succeeding "Summer of Hell" to get it that way. You see deformations and flat rails that take like a decade to get that way, even under the admittedly extreme heavy use that currently obtains. US railroad engineers were far better at designing that stuff in 1910 than they are currently. The two double ladders with with slip switches is the unassailable best solution for extreme capacity, versatility and throughput. It can't be bettered. And on some level, there are people involved know that. I can only hope that Madison Square Garden will be allowed to stay in place, to avoid the much-wished-for boondoggle of rethinking that two-block-wide section of station tracks and platforms.
Further, plans for expanding south are woefully inadequate, being low-capacity, circuitous and slow. The WHOLE additional one-block-width needs to be used for expansion, eventually, with a second lower level under 31st Street allowing the existing stub-end Tracks 1-4 to be connected to the new East River Tunnel phase at 31st Street, and Amtrak trains using a new, wide-platform space under 31st Street, for the opening phase, which can be achieved without demolishing blocks of buildings. Then later, other new tracks to the south, accessible by the new East River tunnel as well. A segment of the new one-block-width should also be given over to vertical storage, with on-same-site platform service for NJ Transit trains, using train elevators with one or two levels below for storage. An analogous scenario would play out when the station is ultimately expanded to the north, using the existing East River Tunnels or their subaqueous replacements having the same alignments. All this (excepting maybe the train elevators) was foreseen in 1910, and the correct Manhattan alignment for two more Hudson tunnels was already decided, with easements purchased and existing intact up to 2015, when the 31st Street one was sold off to make way for the ARC Project/Gateway's circuitous, steep and slow Boondoggle, and its ridiculous "Box" used to access the station from an acute angle unacceptable for speedy, versatile service.
The thing is I'm not sure why anyone would necessarily want to travel from Secaucus to White Plains or or say from Port Washington to New Haven. As a native New Yorker, I would like to see more service that link the outer boroughs more efficiently. At present the region's public transit is geared towards getting people into Manhattan. Your video is about moving people across the region, but just as important is moving people across the city. It takes my son two hours to go from his apartment in Brooklyn to get to my house in the NW Bronx by public transportation. It takes me about 45 minutes by car to get to him. It takes him an hour by public transportation to visit his sister on the other side of brooklyn, the journey which takes about 30 minutes by car.